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India, Jio, and the Four Internets

stratechery.com

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Re: India, Jio, and the Four Internets

#71

Post by pdonis »

tw04 wrote: post #37
Barrin92 wrote: post #8

I feel like every Stratechery piece on Europe is just plain bashing because Ben Thompson is allergic to regulation. Somehow extrapolating from one Indian company, Jio, to some sort of global vision of an internet while completely disregarding the European continent (which in pure market value obviously still is large) just seems like bad faith. Every time I read one of these pieces about growth, growth and growth I'm…

And completely ignores the fact that internet penetration is mediocre at best, speed:price is horrendous compared to the nordic countries, and it's because of LACK of regulation. Had the US government enforced a 1-wire policy from the get-go (municipalities run single-mode fiber for the last mile and let ISPs compete at an aggregation point) we'd be world leaders instead of sad also-rans. All of that is ignoring the…

> it's because of LACK of regulation. Had the US government enforced a 1-wire policy from the get-go (municipalities run single-mode fiber for the last mile and let ISPs compete at an aggregation point)

The fact that this did not happen was not because of lack of regulation; it was because of too much regulation and regulatory capture by large ISPs. Plenty of municipalities wanted to do exactly what you describe, since the benefits to their residents are obvious. What stopped them was regulators, plus lawsuits by large ISPs on the grounds (though they didn't put it this way) that any such action by municipalities would violate the sweetheart monopoly deals they had with the Federal and state governments.

Re: India, Jio, and the Four Internets

#72

Post by azinman2 »

mola wrote: post #63
azinman2 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But where are the examples of the valued products in large use? Let's see.. Spotify ok, Mojang hmmmhmmm.... Rovio? Outside of Spotify, what do I use on a daily basis as an American that's a valued EU-based company?

A lot of infrastructure. A lot, industry is not tech. The world is not the US.

The article is specifically talking about internet-based companies, aka "tech". It seems to me you're confirming an absence of them, which to me invalidates your comment of 'who said unicorns are good?', because the absence suggests that the current model isn't working.

It's true the world isn't the US -- can you point to successful internet-based EU companies that are big in both EU and some other part of the world? If so, it would seem a shame that they're not able to compete well in the US given the size of the market and the compatibility in culture/law/trade.

Re: India, Jio, and the Four Internets

#73

Post by azinman2 »

adventured wrote: post #66
azinman2 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But where are the examples of the valued products in large use? Let's see.. Spotify ok, Mojang hmmmhmmm.... Rovio? Outside of Spotify, what do I use on a daily basis as an American that's a valued EU-based company?

> Outside of Spotify, what do I use on a daily basis as an American that's a valued EU-based company? ARM Holdings (to be fair they did spend 99% of their life up to this point in the EU) and SAP are two reasonable examples derived from the EU that have products that are used by Americans regularly. ARM was co-founded by two American companies and is now owned by a Japanese company, so that's not exactly a shining in…

It's not an 'internet' based company, which this article is specifically talking about. German cars are heavily used by Americans, and I have many German appliances, but again that's not what the subject matter is.

Re: India, Jio, and the Four Internets

#74

Post by el_programmador »

mola wrote: post #58
ruddct wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is he wrong, though? The US, Chinese and Indian models have a fairly strong vision for their internet ecosystems. What's Europe's, and who benefits? From the outside, the EU's big swings (GDPR, Cookie Law, Article 13, etc) look like reactionary messes, and it doesn't seem like their current behavior is doing much to help their companies, governments, or citizens.

Yeah, God forbid consumers will be protected. For years people's data was used as currency without their knowledge. How is that capitalism? Markets without transparency are not free. Europe is trying to maintain a fair market. While big tech (well, big everything) is trying constantly to subvert the market while pretending to make the world a better place.

Europe couldn't even manage to implement Linux in Berlin! The capitalist pressure is what really works there in the farce of socialism. Even with GDPR, those who got penalized where small websites, IT Shops, bloggers, etc. for not knowing their intricate rules while the big fish went unscathed.

Re: India, Jio, and the Four Internets

#75

Post by eklavya »

victor106 wrote: post #17
hesarenu wrote: post #2

Jio is the only option for a huge number of Indians - I don't how the author got this impression. There are many other players Airtel,idea even bsnl. The offers are more or less similar. Anyone can switch or use both. My main number is on Airtel and i use jio as well.

The monopoly of Jio is extremely bad for India. It's an open secret that the Ambani's have significant control over most politicians and political parties in India. Any of the big tech companies who wish to make a significant presence in India have to go through Jio. The monies that Facebook and Google spent buying stakes in Jio is to assure them that their operations wont be hurt.

I am pretty sure they are all investing because jio will come up with a one stop digital shop with them controlling it end to end. They will be launching a cloud. All these companies are investing now to get a piece of the big pie. There will be an IPO.

Re: India, Jio, and the Four Internets

#76

Post by sbmthakur »

victor106 wrote: post #17
hesarenu wrote: post #2

Jio is the only option for a huge number of Indians - I don't how the author got this impression. There are many other players Airtel,idea even bsnl. The offers are more or less similar. Anyone can switch or use both. My main number is on Airtel and i use jio as well.

The monopoly of Jio is extremely bad for India. It's an open secret that the Ambani's have significant control over most politicians and political parties in India. Any of the big tech companies who wish to make a significant presence in India have to go through Jio. The monies that Facebook and Google spent buying stakes in Jio is to assure them that their operations wont be hurt.

> The monopoly of Jio is extremely bad for India.

Any form of monopoly is bad. However, it's important to note that prior to Jio's entry in the market, the data prices were unaffordable for majority of the population. Post Jio's entry, the same incumbent network providers had to slash their prices.

Re: India, Jio, and the Four Internets

#77

Post by mallipeddi »

Can someone who is a domain expert comment on this statement I see being repeated often about Jio's ability to have a significantly lower cost structure by offering only 4G service with 'commodity hardware' versus the legacy players who are operating 2G/3G networks in conjunction with 4G? Is there a lot of truth to this or is this just something that the analysts have heard someplace and are now repeating it faithfully?

Re: India, Jio, and the Four Internets

#78

Post by barneygale »

zpeti wrote: post #43
Barrin92 wrote: post #8

I feel like every Stratechery piece on Europe is just plain bashing because Ben Thompson is allergic to regulation. Somehow extrapolating from one Indian company, Jio, to some sort of global vision of an internet while completely disregarding the European continent (which in pure market value obviously still is large) just seems like bad faith. Every time I read one of these pieces about growth, growth and growth I'm…

What exactly gives you more faith in the old continent? The thousands of unicorns Europe has? No, there are hardly any. The UX nightmares cookie laws create? No. Lower bandwidth fees than in the US? That is actually because of regulatory capture in the US, plus the sheer size of the continent, nothing to do with free markets. So how exactly is Europe so great? The most unicorns came out of the UK who have just decide…

> That is actually because of regulatory capture in the US [...] nothing to do with free markets.

Regulatory capture has everything to do with free markets and American capitalism. I don't even understand how Americans can use the internet without an overseas VPN.

Re: India, Jio, and the Four Internets

#79

Post by missedthecue »

jfk13 wrote: post #62
stickfigure wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The system is perfect; it's the humans that are flawed!"

The system isn't perfect. But it's better than pure anarchy. Probably no (human-designed) system will be perfect. In the case of obnoxious GDPR consent popups, though, the main problem is companies (under the direction of humans, obviously) that are doing their utmost to subvert the clear and reasonable intent of the law, because they simply don't want to respect it (or their users). They're a cancer on the internet.…

>But it's better than pure anarchy.

that's a pretty low bar

Re: India, Jio, and the Four Internets

#80

Post by missedthecue »

barneygale wrote: post #78
zpeti wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly gives you more faith in the old continent? The thousands of unicorns Europe has? No, there are hardly any. The UX nightmares cookie laws create? No. Lower bandwidth fees than in the US? That is actually because of regulatory capture in the US, plus the sheer size of the continent, nothing to do with free markets. So how exactly is Europe so great? The most unicorns came out of the UK who have just decide…

> That is actually because of regulatory capture in the US [...] nothing to do with free markets. Regulatory capture has everything to do with free markets and American capitalism. I don't even understand how Americans can use the internet without an overseas VPN.

how can regulatory capture exist without regulators?
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