Live data from Hacker News

When it comes to hiring, I'll take a Github commit log over a resume any day.

blog.stackoverflow.com

81–90 of 118 posts

Re: When it comes to hiring, I'll take a Github commit log over a resume any day.

#81

Maybe this is paranoia, but I'm beginning to find a lot of threads like this (and a few yesterday about 'how to hire people') actively coercive: "Contribute to Open Source or Don't Get Hired". There are a lot of increasingly shrill remarks out there about how everyone should be doing open source projects in their 'spare time', so no-one has any excuse not to have a track record of FOSS contributions... frankly, it's…

From personal experience with interviewing and screening ~100 candidates over the last two years, I can say that high-quality open source contributions are a big plus for an applicant. I can also say that we've never even considered rejecting someone due to a lack of contributions.

It's great that there are companies which look down on you not using your spare time to do extra programming -- you probably wouldn't want to work at places like that anyway.

Re: When it comes to hiring, I'll take a Github commit log over a resume any day.

#82
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of those posts that is made, and upvoted, based on what everyone wants to be true, instead of what is true. The simple, unassailable truth is that having strong contributions to open-source projects is a massive advantage in any resume-scanning and hiring situation. And as a hiring manager, seeing extensive open-source work is better than seeing a resume. That means the advice is ALWAYS good advice. There…

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I am well aware that strong open-source contributions are an advantage. What I find objectionable is not this advantage. It's the fact that failing to secure this advantage is being portrayed as an obvious professional failure that can be simply rectified by working an extra few hours a night on side projects. It is propaganda from open source people, many of who have achie…

    'I wrote some code, look at me'
Not that you're totally wrong, but a good open-source project also requires -- documentation, tests, community involvement, real users, gathering feedback from those users, collaboration.

Throwing code over the fence is not what open-source is about. I look at it as -- is this person capable of building a product for other people? Is he a team player?

That's not a skill that comes so easily and requires lots of experience or natural talent at other things than churning out code.

Re: When it comes to hiring, I'll take a Github commit log over a resume any day.

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true and thanks for the feedback. Do you (or anyone else reading) have any ideas for things that all talented developers would want to list on their profiles that we don't have on Careers yet? Thanks again!

While filling out my profile it struck me that I'd love a friend finding service: Find me programmers within 50 miles of my stated location who share interests and experiences in some of the many tags I chose for myself. I'd like to meet them and have a beer.

I'm doing some initial work on that.

Re: When it comes to hiring, I'll take a Github commit log over a resume any day.

#84
post #44
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfair how? Anyone can participate in open source. Those who do deserve the benefits that come with it (of which visibility is one of the most obvious).

Anyone can participate in open source. That's not correct - plenty of employment contracts lay claim to any contributions, which means the projects can't accept them.

Which is why my current employement contract has an addadendum that exempts my leisure-time open-source contributions from any claims by my employer. Despite the fact that their default contract has some harsher restrictions/non-compete clauses/claims of code-owernship, this was absolutely no problem to negotiate. Admittedly this is easier in an SMB like I'm currently working for, but still.

Re: When it comes to hiring, I'll take a Github commit log over a resume any day.

#85
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that I can't believe a word you said. I can't see examples of this awesome super top-secret code because it's all closed-source, as you say, for good reasons. I also can't trust your references, because you'll only give me ones that will say good things about you, and any digging at your work history will only uncover "yes he worked here" responses. I want to see open-source contributions because I lik…

> The problem is that I can't believe a word you said. It comes down to this: filtering by OSS contributions gives you many false negatives (as the OP has complained) but virtually zero false positives. In hiring, a false negative is a bummer, but a false positive is disastrous. It would be irresponsible of me as an interviewer not to take this into account. If it someone's pissed because they fall into the false neg…

Unless the person is a major contributor to widely used project, all the OSS contributions show you is two things:

(1) The person can apparently code when he's allowed to pick what he wants to work on and doesn't have any real pressure, and

(2) He has time to work on open source.

Most companies need people who can code well under pressure and when they have to work on something they don't necessarily want to work on.

By screening by OSS contributions you will indeed eliminate one kind of false positive--they people who can't code at all. Other kinds of false positives, such as people who can't work well except on self-selected projects, will get in.

Re: When it comes to hiring, I'll take a Github commit log over a resume any day.

#86
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I am well aware that strong open-source contributions are an advantage. What I find objectionable is not this advantage. It's the fact that failing to secure this advantage is being portrayed as an obvious professional failure that can be simply rectified by working an extra few hours a night on side projects. It is propaganda from open source people, many of who have achie…

Just being honest here, but both of your posts come off, to me, much more as you rationalizing a belief about what is true based on what you want to be true, and trying to "convince" us that most of this thing that "we" possibly value isn't all that valuable. Minimizing people's work on github as just some trivial side project, that should be ignored, because you don't want to do it, just isn't a reflection of the re…

I concur that there definitely are strawmans and other poor argument tactics afloat. Onan_barbarian says that while some github contributions are really admirable, but some are of zero value, to which you reply by first reconstructing this argument to be "people's work on github is just some trivial side project, that should be ignored.", followed up by accusing him of rationalizing his hopes and making strawmen.

When someone says he did something, a github commit log showing it is definitely better than just him saying he did it. However, the point you actively dismissed was that a commit log of some mundane contributions is much less impressive than a resume describing work requiring a lot of skill.

Re: When it comes to hiring, I'll take a Github commit log over a resume any day.

#87
I'm going to chime in here with all the various for/against comments going on and at least TRY to make some sense out of all this - or at the very least, show others how some of us "haters" see it, and explain to other "haters" how it's just the way it is - period.

Using GitHub or other OSS contributions/commits as your actual resume, or the litmus test for, "can I have the job, boss?" has been something I think we've all seen coming down the pipe for a few years now - I know I saw it way back when. Personally, I live in the midwest, not the SF bay area, so "trends" like this are a bit slower to catch on out here, but the last several job interviews I've been at, somebody has always asked me: "Do you have a GitHub account?"

This situation has people on both sides of the argument - for and against. And I'm going on record right now as saying, absolutely, 100%, without question, BOTH sides are right.

The truth is, from an employer's perspective, this just makes sense: prove that you can do the job. A resume doesn't do that - it proves that you can hand a piece of paper, sometimes even written by some one else, and BS your way through an interview.

On the other hand, employers frequently trot out teams of developers - some as many as 15 (that I've seen personally) to pepper a candidate with lots of hard questions during an interview. Inevitably, there's always that one nerd in there with serious penis envy who tries to re-assert his "dominance" by trying to "outsmart" the job candidate to make him or her look bad by throwing some super hard core question that makes said nerd look like a badass at the poor guy doing his best, and then trying to make the interviewee look like an ass when s/he can't answer it. The truth is, these guys have time - days - to prepare these interview style "litmus tests" for candidates, but when interviewing for the job, you go in blind not knowing what to expect and have to come up with everything from memory. /rant

This makes for a craptastic experience for the candidate, and a very time consuming and costly experience for the employer. Looking at a collection of code related to the job in question is a much faster way for them to get a handle on where the candidate is at, without the need for such involved processes in many cases, saving time and money for them and the candidate, and saving the candidate some serious anxiety.

However, there's another side to this coin. From the perspective of those of us who would rather NOT go home and spend all night 4+ days per week writing MORE code, this puts us in a bad spot.

The way I see it, you have two kinds of developers (basically): those who are SUPER into what they're doing - which is great (really! no sarcasm intended) - and those who enjoy what they do, but recognize that it's work. Good, old-fashioned, hard work. W-O-R-K. Blowing up some asshole in Halo Reach or having sex with your girlfriends (yes, plural) is a hell of a lot more fun than researching "most efficient sorting algorithm". So when we're not at W-O-R-K, earning a living, we need SOME way to kick back and release, or we'll absolutely explode. That's called "common sense".

This presents a problem: those who, for whatever reason, be it inability to get a date, or absolute true "nerdvana" enjoyment of writing code, end up doing ADDITIONAL development work, strictly for work's sake, now have a somewhat (emphasis on somewhat) unfair advantage over those of us who can do the same job, and are willing to work just as hard (for pay - after all, I can't pay rent with hugs and good will), but have other obligations (kids, for example, is a big one) and just plain can't put in another 20+ hours per week required to COMPETE - yes, I said the C word - with others who can.

Some arguments I've seen or heard that I'll comment on:

"But it's not THAT hard!" Nothing easy is really truly WORTH doing. I can write some seriously easy code in under 5 minutes that'll look bad ass from a quantity point of view - until you actually examine it close up and see that it's just bullshit. The stuff that REALLY makes you shine is finding new, interesting, and USEFUL ways to solve hard problems. Nothing else is really as worthwhile. And there's a point that you get to, after doing it for 50+ hours per week, that you just say, "enough!" and have to decompress. Other people see it differently - they still enjoy it and do it in their free time. I truly wish those people well and want to encourage them to keep doing it!

"Well, if you aren't the kind who'll do the OSS commits, you aren't a culture fit anyway." This is 100% Grade-A bullshit. Just because a person doesn't want to spend their free time - that they'll never get paid for - creating additional software, outside the scope of their workplace, essentially doing MORE work simply for work's sake, does NOT mean s/he is a bad culture fit. _It means they have self respect._ If you're going for the super hard core, hipster silicon valley, "my shit doesn't stink" start-up environment, that may be true. But in a nice place I like to call "the real world", those companies cutting the checks GET IT - at the end of the day, you gotta get paid for your work. Even though they understand this, they'll sure as shit take advantage of other people who have no problem with playing the role of "happy little nerd behind the desk that we don't let talk to anyone and just codes all the time". They're perfectly happy to use this kind of job competition to squeeze more out of some one beyond what they're paying them for, and don't give a damn when that poor person eventually has a breakdown because they've been working 80+ hours per week for several months, maybe even years.

My bottom line on this is pretty simple: like it or not, this trend isn't going anywhere because it has advantages for parties who are interested. Unfortunately, I really think that it's going to create an even more hyper-competitive environment for people looking for jobs. We'll get to a point where we'll have maybe 20-35% of applicants who are truly really HARD CORE into what they're doing and truly, with every fiber of their being, enjoy writing code on their own time, but then we'll find a larger segment of people who do it somewhat begrudgingly, seeing it for what it is - work for work's sake. This is going to breed a very strong sense of competition in the engineering and development job market that allows companies to treat developers - especially younger ones, recent college grads, etc. - as what they'll be painting themselves as: subservient nerds who work for peanuts just for the CHANCE to have a job, even being paid in stock options that are totally worthless at Startup #1119128418911818119.2.

There's no way in hell I'm going to work 40+ hours per week doing something that, sure, I enjoy, but get bitched at by some asshole in his Armani suit that "it isn't gettin' done fast enough!", then go home and write more code just for the CHANCE to do it all over again. Fuck that.

And those who will do that? Many will end up submitting crappy OSS contributions that do nothing to move the industry forward, because they're only doing it for the sake of being able to compete in a job market - NOT because they truly love what they're doing. And that's really the major thing that irks me about this trend.

But again, it's happening and there's nothing that can be done to change it. That's why personally, I'm looking at changing job functions. Systems administration, or project management maybe. I'd much rather be the asshole in the Armani suit DOING the chew out, making bonuses of over $500k/year that keep going up, with a relatively easy job (especially compared to modern development), than the poor guy he's chewing out, despite that person doing a seriously awesome job under very difficult circumstances, for very low/poor pay that keeps decreasing due to increasing job market competition, who works twice as much and twice as hard, and STILL has to put up with assholes like "Mr. Suit".

Fuck that shit.

Re: When it comes to hiring, I'll take a Github commit log over a resume any day.

#88
post #53
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone can participate in open source. That's not correct - plenty of employment contracts lay claim to any contributions, which means the projects can't accept them.

Let me quite honest and say that if someone Agnes an employment contract, as a developer, that prevents them from writing unrelated code in their spare time or lays claim to any code written outside of the office, that person is an idiot. I'm not a developer and on every company I've been with in the past 10 or so years I've gotten something in writing or marked up my contract/employee agreement stating that in no wa…

I totally agree with the sentiment here, that such contracts that lay claim to your IP that you develop on your own automatically belongs to the company. I hate that and I've actually rejected offers in the past because of that reason exactly. I also think that if you could get a high profile enough case with that as the focal point, you could probably have such a thing declared illegal, and then establish precedent that could be used to invalidate the whole, "we own you AND your thoughts" corporate thinking. Or so I hope :)

Re: When it comes to hiring, I'll take a Github commit log over a resume any day.

#89
post #51
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone can participate in open source. That's not correct - plenty of employment contracts lay claim to any contributions, which means the projects can't accept them.

Employment contracts don't dictate what you can write in the privacy of your own home on a non-employer-owned machine and what you subsequently do with it. (Of course non-compete clauses can kick in if you're working on Oracle DB and contribute to Postgres, but there are always other OSS projects where that little restriction doesn't apply.)

The sad thing is man, some DO. I've personally seen contracts with clauses like this:

"Any code, materials, designs, patents, design patterns or other such intellectual property ("IP") created by candidate is automatically and immediately assigned, irrevocably, to Employer upon its creation without further consideration."

The legality of this withstanding, I'm just letting you know, from experience, I've seen this approach in LOTS of contracts. I've learned the hard way that just because something is illegal or unenforceable doesn't mean that a company won't TRY to get away with it anyway. Often times, they do, because "the little guy" doesn't have over $100k to pay for an attorney.

Re: When it comes to hiring, I'll take a Github commit log over a resume any day.

#90
post #67

Maybe this is paranoia, but I'm beginning to find a lot of threads like this (and a few yesterday about 'how to hire people') actively coercive: "Contribute to Open Source or Don't Get Hired". There are a lot of increasingly shrill remarks out there about how everyone should be doing open source projects in their 'spare time', so no-one has any excuse not to have a track record of FOSS contributions... frankly, it's…

It is becoming increasingly rare to work on an island away from open source. A lot of companies use open source in some way and having an in-house developer familiar with the projects they use or relay on can be quite useful. And the improvements that the company is willing to pay for but aren't a competitive advantage can be committed to the open source project. It's a win for everyone. Do you work on an island?

You people are insane. Going out on a limb here, as I hate making my life public - I worked at Factset Research Systems for just about four years. They are a publicly traded company (FDS - NYSE). Guess what - They would allow precisely 0% of the code I wrote for them while working there to be shown to another company.

So what you are saying, is that, given that, unless I went home and coded and contributed to an open source project during my free time, I am a shitty engineer, not worth your time. Get real. Incidentally I work elsewhere now. They asked me to solve a programming task before an on site interview, and then...shock, I had an onsite interview process.

Do you think that when a heart surgeon from NYC applies to work in Seattle or LA, they say, "That's great that you didn't kill anyone at First General on 57th street, but, do you have any published video of you doing surgery pro bono we can watch so that we know you're not full of it?"

Post reply on HN