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Turns out half the internet has a single-point-of-failure called “Cloudflare”

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Re: Turns out half the internet has a single-point-of-failure called “Cloudflare”

#331

Cloudflare is horrible for blind people. Screen readers, the programs that use synthesized speech to tell us what's on the screen, cannot read images. Good captchas usually have audio equivalents (which come with their own set of problems), but this one doesn't. If you're blind and flagged by Cloudflare for some reason, you're cut off from accessing half the internet, potentially critical banking/governmental/medical…

I use audio captchas. Google will usually only let you do 2 or 3 before banning you and making you do image-based ones. I'm pretty sure the button is just there to make it seem accessible.

CloudFlare doesn't use Google ReCaptcha anymore. They use some Blockchain Captcha thing now.

Re: Turns out half the internet has a single-point-of-failure called “Cloudflare”

#332
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought 'we' were for 'Net Neutrality'? Remember, carriers and service providers not allowed to decided what to do based on content?

Yeah, Cloudflare shouldn't be censoring anyone. I could understand if it were requested by law enforcement but why would we want them trying to police the web?

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Re: Turns out half the internet has a single-point-of-failure called “Cloudflare”

#333
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought 'we' were for 'Net Neutrality'? Remember, carriers and service providers not allowed to decided what to do based on content?

Yeah, Cloudflare shouldn't be censoring anyone. I could understand if it were requested by law enforcement but why would we want them trying to police the web?

refusing to provide your services to someone is not censoring them. did they black hole their dns entries in 1.1.1.1? did they steal their domain name? no. companies fire customers all of the time.

Re: Turns out half the internet has a single-point-of-failure called “Cloudflare”

#334

Honest question: I've never really understood the back of the napkin math of how Cloudflare functions economically, which I feel would go a long way towards my understanding of why/how they were able to become such an integral and generally positive part of the Internet. Did they have some crazy in to get cheap bandwidth? Did they bet big on bandwidth prices falling? Did they figure something else out that nobody saw…

Worth noting that cloudflare does a poor job of identifying and allowing crawlers specially Google. I have a site with 1 mil URLs , nothing big and every time you turn on cloudflare it reduces the crawler to 1k visits or less per day. If you compare your logs for visits for Google and Bing with CF turned on/off there is a huge difference. Suffice to say, that in over 5-6 projects I have added CF to, it's never worked…

Do I understand correctly that you're suggesting Cloudflare reduces organic search traffic due to restricting search engine crawlers?

Re: Turns out half the internet has a single-point-of-failure called “Cloudflare”

#335
post #268

Cloudflare is horrible for blind people. Screen readers, the programs that use synthesized speech to tell us what's on the screen, cannot read images. Good captchas usually have audio equivalents (which come with their own set of problems), but this one doesn't. If you're blind and flagged by Cloudflare for some reason, you're cut off from accessing half the internet, potentially critical banking/governmental/medical…

Thank you for sharing your experience. Cloudflare switched to using hCaptcha a couple months ago, I think and I only just noticed that they do not offer an audio-based captcha. However, hCaptcha integrates with Privacy Pass[0], and you can top up your tokens by solving a captcha at [1] and [2]. What you could do (and I realize this is far from ideal), is getting a sighted friend to solve a couple of captchas so you h…

There are a couple of bugs[0][1] in Privacy Pass that causes spending tokens during collecting, thereby preventing collecting tokens.

[0]: https://github.com/privacypass/challenge-bypass-extension/is...

[1]: https://github.com/privacypass/challenge-bypass-extension/is...

Re: Turns out half the internet has a single-point-of-failure called “Cloudflare”

#336
post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a lot of faith that we will resolve this, but the 'Net Neutrality' vs. 'Ban Someone I Don't Like' hypocrisy is dizzying. The positions are ideological and naive - they are obviously contradictory - it's only that when they are framed in certain ways, often 'straw-man-ish', do people think they have clarity on them. For example, it's easy to understand why we don't want Verizon charging customers differen…

> It's a very slippery slope. > This issue is only going to get much worse and more complicated over time. Slippery slope is a fallacy. Humans aren't required to follow the precedent of previous decisions like SCOTUS justices are. People eventually see the problems with previous choices once the consequences hit a tipping point. We are having multiple moral panics right now. They will pass. People will eventually get…

The 'slope' has been 'slipping' for at least 10 years, and here is no indication that it's going to let up.

The opposite of 'fallacy' - it's literally happening all around you:

1) We now have major corporate support for 'social claims' with brands backing (and cashing in) on celebrities for their politics, not their skill at 'whatever', and supporting some causes surrounding a lot of public disruption. These have led to some groups trying to 'ban' others.

2) The attempted influencing of electoral outcomes via 'bad information' from outside agents, agitators, along with a plethora of information - with no guidance other than the whims of CEOs. There's all sorts of 'banning' on FB and YouTube and it's all pretty grey, often it can have major consequences.

3) CEO's brought to congressional hearings for these issues - this is a sign that 'ban' culture is now a top concern.

4) Weekly national 'pop culture wars' over which brand has transgressed which group, promoted widely in the press, resulting in calls for bans of some products or services.

5) 'Social concern' as the primary legitimacy for populism, even among those who are supposed to be popular for their acting, music, or athletics. In the last 10 years - ever 'celeb' has embarked upon a 'personal branding campaign' to imbue themselves with moral authority. There was always a little bit of this - but now it's 'the thing'. Go and have a look at social media, try 'Kristen Bell'. Every few posts are about some kind of moral concern. Otherwise: they could get the ban. A host of globally respected individuals had to sign an piece in Harper's. This is basically 'shocking' to anyone of a certain age, because intellectuals and their ilk used to be the one's fighting for freedom of expression against the authorities - now, 'ban' culture has infiltrated their organisations and become a populist issue.

6) There are disruptions and protests around what would be normal, common, mundane events: 'The Joker' review by the Daily Beast was entitled: "Everything About the Joker was Absolutely Infuriating". The 'infuriating' parts had nothing to do with the film, but rather the supposed politics of the film. The DB and others wanted the film to not be released is it were. There are weekly arguments over who can play who in film, supposed issues of representation, wars over the composition of selection committees - often resulting in the 'cancelling' of individuals.

Twitter and social media have created the ability for agitators to move giant waves of people in an emotional, populist direction, resulting in quite a lot of effort to ban, cancel, disassociate.

It's far worse than ever before, and it's going to be worse before it gets better.

I see no pathway for it 'getting better' anytime soon, because the pathways to outrage have formed, hardened and are now part of our culture.

Individually - yes - most of us are getting sick of it - but that won't change the fact of the activity in the news, on Twitter, and journalists 'calling for the resignation' of so and so for this and that with the basic moral impetus of 'someone on Twitter said it, therefore, that's how America feels'.

CloudFlare, Facebook - your startup - does not want to deal with this, there needs to be some kind of collective clarity.

[1] https://www.thedailybeast.com/everything-about-joker-is-abso...

Re: Turns out half the internet has a single-point-of-failure called “Cloudflare”

#337

Cloudflare is horrible for blind people. Screen readers, the programs that use synthesized speech to tell us what's on the screen, cannot read images. Good captchas usually have audio equivalents (which come with their own set of problems), but this one doesn't. If you're blind and flagged by Cloudflare for some reason, you're cut off from accessing half the internet, potentially critical banking/governmental/medical…

It might be worth filing an ADA compliance notice against cloudflare. This is seriously disturbing. As someone that works in ed tech - anyone that supports higher education is required to support screen readers etc. If any of those sites are using cloudflare that would block them from being compliant pretty seriously.

Isn't this a title 9 violation?

Re: Turns out half the internet has a single-point-of-failure called “Cloudflare”

#338
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"They should have the right to make that choice as a private entity." No they should not. And the analogy works: if you're getting filtered on the basis of your content - at the packet level or not - then it's fundamentally against Net Neutrality. Wait until the PR team at Verizon decides they don't want to publish your content because you're too vocal about BLM. Or, they will only support you if you do support BLM,…

There is clear regulation in many countries: nazi speech gets you thrown in jail, the rest is mostly fine. See njmerious european countries like Germany that aren't some dystopia hellscape. That reflects a lot of what happens voluntarily today anyway, but it can't of course be formalized into regulatory law in the USA, because such regulation is restricted by the first amendment. Your panic is unwarranted anyways, be…

"Its just a fictional slippery slope made up to protect hate speech"

Ah, and there is the ugly, authoritarian, Stalinist argument right there.

"We only ban, denounce, destroy those who are GUILTY of Hate Crimes, so how could you have any worry about that?"

People are banned all day long on Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Stripe, comments sections etc. for any and all sorts of made up reasons that have nothing to do with hate speech. And FYI you can say things that are essentially hate speech, but in a political context may not be, so it's fine i.e. "White People Are a Disease" is a common thing on Twitter. No problems there apparently.

And speaking as a former German resident, they have some real Nazis there, none of this kind of 'made up suff' like in the US.

This is a problem that needs to be addressed.

'Freedom of Expression' is the #1 Amendment to the US Constitution and the #1 thing in the relatively new Canadian constitution (#11 in EU) for a very good reason: it took thousands of years for 'every day people' to be able to speak their minds without being shot.

We can't leave this issue up to corporate CEO's, mostly trying to read the Twitter tea leaves.

Re: Turns out half the internet has a single-point-of-failure called “Cloudflare”

#339
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shouldn't that liability be with the operators of websites that use those captchas if they're required to be blind-accessible? If they get sued, it'll apply pressure up the supply chain.

I used to feel and think this way. But recent events, and the trajectory of the internet over the last decade has changed my mind completely. We must stop giving excuses to the massive centralization, to the enormous companies that step in and rent-seek what is supposed to be a distributed system. The most powerful tool we could have to get a proper internet back is the simple concept of accountability. If I was a ba…

If we want to regulate the captcha industry there should be a law passed specifically regulating the industry. Blindsiding the industry with judgments against them when there are no laws about it will decrease confidence in the rule of law, which will hurt the economy as businesses lose confidence in their ability to predict the future.

Re: Turns out half the internet has a single-point-of-failure called “Cloudflare”

#340
post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solutions can’t be implemented instantly; a work around is needed until that ramp is installed. As much as the lack of audio solution sucks, you can’t expect half the internet to just give up on a piece of technology overnight

Why not?

When you move fast you tend to break things. When half the internet relies on you you want to avoid outages.
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