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Turns out half the internet has a single-point-of-failure called “Cloudflare”

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Re: Turns out half the internet has a single-point-of-failure called “Cloudflare”

#301

Post by monadic2 »

Reelin wrote: post #249
nix23 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but you don't have to sell your service to Nazi's....roads are a official service provided by the government/people's taxes, CF is not.

This misses the point to an impressive degree. No one here is disputing the current legality and I think everyone here understands the difference between government and private services. The argument is that we've come to depend on privately owned backbone infrastructure in much the same way we depend on publicly owned roads. Furthermore, the operators of that infrastructure have shown themselves to be vulnerable to…

That seems to imply nationalization would be the beneficial thing, not regulation.

Re: Turns out half the internet has a single-point-of-failure called “Cloudflare”

#302

Post by dahfizz »

waheoo wrote: post #272
1f60c wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for sharing your experience. Cloudflare switched to using hCaptcha a couple months ago, I think and I only just noticed that they do not offer an audio-based captcha. However, hCaptcha integrates with Privacy Pass[0], and you can top up your tokens by solving a captcha at [1] and [2]. What you could do (and I realize this is far from ideal), is getting a sighted friend to solve a couple of captchas so you h…

This is such an out of touch dev response. The problem is hcaptcha, the solution is stop using hcaptcha. Not placate and evade with work arounds you wouldn't even suggest to non blind people. Also this ask a friend solution is like telling someone in a wheelchair to ask a friend to help them up those steps instead of just installing a ramp. You don't get to take over half the internet and just ignore social responsib…

I think you need to take a deep breathe.

You're responding to a rando on the internet, not the CTO of Cloudflare. Your parent is just trying to offer help to OP, and you're mad because you assume he is a Cloudflare dev? Even if he was, it's not like he has unilateral control over product decisions.

Re: Turns out half the internet has a single-point-of-failure called “Cloudflare”

#303

Post by nikanj »

userbinator wrote: post #299
jiggawatts wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "human detector" of the modern internet doesn't accept disabled people as sufficiently human. That's... the most dystopian thing I've heard in a while!

In the other direction, Google thinks I'm a bot if I use complex search queries (exclusions, site:, quotes, etc.) in an attempt to find what I'm looking for. Apparently it thinks I'm too intelligent to be a human.

You’re not profitable enough. You’re insisting on finding the thing you want, instead of settling for what Google is pushing today.

Re: Turns out half the internet has a single-point-of-failure called “Cloudflare”

#304

Post by DrJosiah »

miki123211 wrote: post #250

Cloudflare is horrible for blind people. Screen readers, the programs that use synthesized speech to tell us what's on the screen, cannot read images. Good captchas usually have audio equivalents (which come with their own set of problems), but this one doesn't. If you're blind and flagged by Cloudflare for some reason, you're cut off from accessing half the internet, potentially critical banking/governmental/medical…

Hi! I work at hCaptcha (we handle the CF captchas), and to respond specifically: audio is inaccessible for those with visual and auditory processing issues, as well as being broken by ML techniques. Not to project, but we suspect this is why Google turns it off if your browser looks at all suspicious.

Another user mentioned the Privacy Pass solution: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23902870

While Privacy Pass is not perfect, we are working towards getting better. I'm not in the product flow for accessibility, but if you have ideas outside of audio that you believe would be able to distinguish between yourself and a robot, I'd be happy to discuss via email to ensure that we can get a solution for you and anyone who can reasonably interact with a computer.

eta: you can email me directly at work via: josiah@intuitionmachines.com

eta2: http://hcaptcha.com/accessibility

Re: Turns out half the internet has a single-point-of-failure called “Cloudflare”

#305

Post by DrJosiah »

Kudos wrote: post #258
DrJosiah wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work at hCaptcha, we run CF's captcha. If you're having problems in the future, popping open a debugger and capturing the results can help us figure out what's going on. But also: browser, OS, site, ...? Right now: there is an issue with Safari users on the most recent iOS and OS X, where 3rd party cookies have now been disabled by default. We're working on a solution. If that's your issue, you can fix on your side…

I'd love to see your reply to the blind person commenting on your product here.

Here it is: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23903405

Re: Turns out half the internet has a single-point-of-failure called “Cloudflare”

#306

Post by h0l0cube »

renewiltord wrote: post #155
morrbo wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

II love cloudflare. It has really helped out with several sites/projects that I have worked on and the service is top notch. I am also an investor. I tend to invest in stuff which I use a lot or trust/respect the employees. Weirdly what made me really invest is the level of geekiness on the company. I remember seeing you guys using a lava lamp wall to generate entropy and just thought "that's awesome". I just wanted…

It's a bit of a sad story, but maybe you'll like this read about one of the guys who laid the foundation for their tech and his sad decline: https://www.wired.com/story/lee-holloway-devastating-decline... I really liked the stories of his skill when he was in his prime. Very inspiring.

Reminds me of this part of Robert Sapolsky's Human Behavioural Biology lecture series:

Robert Sapolsky - Phineas Gage and frontal damage https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wKDXzk8Wm4

Re: Turns out half the internet has a single-point-of-failure called “Cloudflare”

#307

Post by kbenson »

lopmotr wrote: post #291
dependenttypes wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had exactly the same issue. I am surprised how neither cloudflare nor google have been sued for making most of the web inaccessible to people with disabilities.

Shouldn't that liability be with the operators of websites that use those captchas if they're required to be blind-accessible? If they get sued, it'll apply pressure up the supply chain.

I agree. You don't sue the contractor because they built to the specification you provided.

At the same time, if Google is advertising Recaptcha as accessible and it's not really, then they need to be held accountable for that, because that has a real impact on huge swaths of the internet, and especially for sites that try to do the right thing and find out Google has screwed them.

Re: Turns out half the internet has a single-point-of-failure called “Cloudflare”

#309

Post by blisseyGo »

johnklos wrote: post #224

I think people are Cloudflare fans simply because so many other services suck more. I gave Cloudflare a fair shake. But after hearing their lies way too many times, I'm calling them out for being deceptive and unscrupulous. After being told that sites pretending to host Adobe Flash updaters and pretending to be Bank of America can't be taken down by Cloudflare because of their rights to free speech, I knew their atte…

For me, the biggest disappointment was when they were defending hosting terrorist site for "free speech" reasons:

https://www.fastcompany.com/90312063/how-cloudflare-straddle...

https://blog.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-and-free-speech/

> the company serves at least seven groups on the U.S. State Department’s list of foreign terrorist organizations, including al-Shabab, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), al-Quds Brigades, the Kurdistan Workers’ Party, al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, and Hamas.

> CEP has sent letters to Cloudflare since February 13, 2017, warning about clients on the service, including Hamas, the Taliban, the PFLP, and the Nordic Resistance Movement. The latest letter, from February 15, 2019, warns of what CEP identified as three pro-ISIS propaganda websites.

All this while routinely censoring other sites. Their actions are very different than their words.

Re: Turns out half the internet has a single-point-of-failure called “Cloudflare”

#310

Post by anchpop »

nikanj wrote: post #303
userbinator wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the other direction, Google thinks I'm a bot if I use complex search queries (exclusions, site:, quotes, etc.) in an attempt to find what I'm looking for. Apparently it thinks I'm too intelligent to be a human.

You’re not profitable enough. You’re insisting on finding the thing you want, instead of settling for what Google is pushing today.

Since they're on HN they likely use uBlock, which means that they're not profitable for Google regardless of how they search
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