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High Frequency Trading Development Kit

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Re: High Frequency Trading Development Kit

#71
post #54
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see from your post that you're very misinformed about how markets operate and the role of high frequency traders (a.k.a. liquidity providers). Read my response to a previous comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2164458

I have nothing against HFT but I don't buy your liquidity argument. Liquidity is needed most when markets are falling outside the norm. Any algorithm with a fail-safe or kill switch will immediately shut off when times get bad thereby ending their contribution to liquidity at a time when it is needed most. Please help me understand this better if I'm incorrect. (edited for clarity)

The main point that you're missing is that there is a huge demand for liquidity during a majority of market hours. On average, 7 billion shares of US equities are traded every day. That is a monumentally large number if you think about it. According to the TABB consulting group, roughly 50-70% of American stock trades are done by HFT [1]. Let's assume that 10-20% of trading is non-profit motivated (utilitarian, you could say). That means that roughly 1 billion shares are exchanged every day by utilitarian traders. That in itself should be clear evidence that there is a large demand for liquidity.

HFT market makers play an important role in those transactions. Specifically, they make it cheaper to buy and sell stocks by (1) tightening the bid-ask spread and (2) providing more quantity at each price, so that the average cost of executing an order is less. Not only that, when markets become tighter, they actually enable transactions to occur that would not have happened before. In other words, previously where buyers and sellers would NOT have traded because the transaction costs of crossing the bid-ask spread were too high, those two parties can now trade. Specifically, without HFT, there would be far fewer than 1 billion shares traded by utilitarian traders on a daily basis.

To address the other point of providing liquidity "when the markets need it most", let's take a step back. When you say that "market makers should step in to provide liquidity [for society's benefit]", you're implying that there's some externality to lack of liquidity in financial markets (if so, this is yet another reason that we need HFT on a daily basis). Suppose that this is the case: there is some negative externality to society when markets are illiquid, as is oft to happen when things go crazy in the world. During those times, volatility is insanely high because the risk of being in any position is also insanely high. Remember, market makers get compensated (on average) for holding risk that you don't want. If risk is higher, naturally, the compensation should be also. This is manifested in higher costs of execution: spreads widen and the available quantity at each level decreases.

If you want to force HFT market makers, which are private corporations, to step in to provide more liquidity, then you are forcing these companies to pay for that externality. In effect, they would take on huge risk for far diminished expected returns. That doesn't make any particular sense to me. However, if society as a whole has this view that some private corporations need to pay for public externalities, then that should be a matter of regulation. But if that's the case, why pick on HFT in particular? Why not force McDonalds and Whole Foods to give food to hungry people during famines? Surely, there is an externality to the food industry NOT stepping in during periods of extended hunger, "just when people need it the most."

[1] http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2010/10/yes-70-of-us-e...

Re: High Frequency Trading Development Kit

#72
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider a hypothetical stock currently trading at 34.05 bid, 34.06 ask. Trader A puts in a bid for 100 @ 34.06, matching Trader B's ask of 34.06. Normally, B would then sell to A, but thanks to HFT, institute C has the unique and intrinsically unfair position of being able to fulfill A's order. Explain? Who is institution C? How are they able to violate time priority? Assuming a moderate holding of stock, you are th…

On some stock exchanges, for example NASDAQ, you can pay a fee to be allowed access to market orders earlier than anyone else. Paired with colo services (literally your servers are next door - nearly eliminating network latency) you have a massive time advantage. Sources: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/24/business/24trading.html http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/05/business/05flash.html Note that the SEC has not banned…

You're point that market makers provide liquidity by flash orders is entirely false. You clearly have no understanding of how market makers actually go about their day to day business. Please don't pontificate as if you do, or if you plan to, acknowledge that you're only speculating based on marginal facts and poorly written articles (yes, even the NY Times has horribly inaccurate articles) you've gathered on the internet.

In fact, that entire paragraph is pure specious reasoning. The main point that really drove it home for me was:

Being able to figure out the limits on the buy/sell orders is simply icing.

I can gather you have not actually tried to find a statistical trend in market prices. Simply put, it's difficult to do in practice.

Re: High Frequency Trading Development Kit

#73
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite all of this, I find the most worrying thing about the recent HFT developments is the simple fact that hobbyists want to get involved. Surely turning amateurs loose in such a necessarily complex world will result in large sums of money being lost. Oh wait... I get it.

It's not lost. It goes somewhere.

Yep. Money is not lost, it just belongs to someone else ;)

Re: High Frequency Trading Development Kit

#74
post #19
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Set it up, trade 'virtually' (i.e., just simulate), prove your algos, get bankrolled by someone who is convinced of the algos worth. Quite straightforward. I'm highly skeptical of a hobbyist beating the competition though (maybe in micro niches, where one would add domain specific knowledge to get an edge - that's my pet idea on this topic :) )

It is straightforward, but impractical. Getting good historical market data is very, very expensive. Even recording current market data is not cheap and not without significant difficulty.

For a non-pro setup you're going to be accepting significant scope limitations in production - you're not going to be scanning the full real time feed across the whole market. Without colocation HFT isn't really an option either. So you can restrict your strategies to medium frequency against a small universe of assets which makes the technical side easier. Also the data side you won't need a full set of data, e.g. tickdata.com has data at $20/symbol/year (https://store.tickdata.com/prices?productMarketId=PRODUCT_MA...)

Re: High Frequency Trading Development Kit

#75
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see from your post that you're very misinformed about how markets operate and the role of high frequency traders (a.k.a. liquidity providers). Read my response to a previous comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2164458

Consider a hypothetical stock currently trading at 34.05 bid, 34.06 ask. Trader A puts in a bid for 100 @ 34.06, matching Trader B's ask of 34.06. Normally, B would then sell to A, but thanks to HFT, institute C has the unique and intrinsically unfair position of being able to fulfill A's order. Assuming a moderate holding of stock, you are then able to manipulate the market up and down second-to-second by selectivel…

rgarcia already pointed out that your statement about institute C violating price-time priority is false. You then make a defamatory remark against the industry with zero evidence. Market manipulation is illegal. No respectable trading firm does it. Why? It is unethical and illegal.

In a zero sum game where knowledge is power, you know exactly who is buying and who is selling - before John Q. Public knows.

Since when was it the prerogative of every market participant to get quotes at the exact same time? There is a huge cost to colocation--it doesn't come free. The fact that trading has as high barrier to entry is a moot point. Starting a biotech company takes hundreds of millions of dollars in capital. Is it unfair to John Q. Public that Amgen and Novartis have competitive advantages in that field? Of course. Is it unethical? Absolutely not. When the steam engine was invented, was it unfair for guys who drove horse buggies? Of course. The new technology replaced him because it was able to do what he did, but more efficiently. This is no different. Day traders (I'm assuming that's what you're referring to when yous ay John Q. Public) are horse and buggy drivers. It isn't the fault of high frequency traders that they are that way. If John Q. Public wants to stay competitive, he has to change what he's doing.

If, instead, you're talking about your pension fund buying 1 million shares of Microsoft, then you have to realize that HFT is actually decreasing the cost of their doing that. Tighter spreads and more liquidity lower transaction costs for everybody.

Peruse this Forbes article, if you will - http://blogs.forbes.com/afontevecchia/2011/02/15/bernanke-pu....

I find it ridiculous that the article you cite makes no mention of HFT! In fact, I'm pretty sure that those profits are from their prop trading desks that don't do HFT. I can tell you that with certainty, because I know the ballpark of how much HFT firms make, and it's nowhere near that number. Please don't cite facts that are irrelevant to your point and then carry on as if they prove your case. I perused the article, did you even read it?

Having the advantage of being able to front run the markets is not limited to just market making, however. Limits are one of the ubiquitous features of stock markets - the ability to say, I will buy or sell X shares of this stick up until it hits price Y. This can be exploited easily by HFT/front running - you have 30 ms [2] to probe out where the limit is with small IOC transactions. In this way, you are able to meet orders at prices that are different than the currently trading price - effectively bypassing all competition.

Flash orders, if they're even used by anybody anymore, must account for some negligible fraction of market volume.

3. I have used HFT and front running as synonyms because they seem to be inescapably tied together. Why the need to have picosecond advantages if you aren't trying to beat another bottom feeder to the prey?

Market makers need high speed mostly to avoid getting picked off by other aggressive HFT firms. The prey isn't day traders, it's other HFT firms. Day traders don't operate on the same timescales as HFT. Just the fact that a day trader is using a mouse to enter and exit positions already precludes that possibility. If day traders are placing limit orders into the market and are upset that they can't cancel fast enough, they need to understand that their edge isn't in cancelling quickly, but purportedly something else (predicting longer term price movement?).

I'm all for a civil debate, but please checks your facts. Most of the sources you cite are irrelevant to this discussion :(

Re: High Frequency Trading Development Kit

#77
post #71
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have nothing against HFT but I don't buy your liquidity argument. Liquidity is needed most when markets are falling outside the norm. Any algorithm with a fail-safe or kill switch will immediately shut off when times get bad thereby ending their contribution to liquidity at a time when it is needed most. Please help me understand this better if I'm incorrect. (edited for clarity)

The main point that you're missing is that there is a huge demand for liquidity during a majority of market hours. On average, 7 billion shares of US equities are traded every day. That is a monumentally large number if you think about it. According to the TABB consulting group, roughly 50-70% of American stock trades are done by HFT [1]. Let's assume that 10-20% of trading is non-profit motivated (utilitarian, you c…

I'm still in the "learning the syntax" stage of finance so this is great information. thank you. do you think that one reason why people say bad things about HFT is because they see them being unfairly compensated for taking on what they perceive is a small amount of risk? as in - "come on, how hard can it be to grab a block of stock on an upward trend and quickly sell it." Of course, the more I dig into this, the more I realize how hard it is to find those trends and how easy it is to lose your ass. But, people don't dig in themselves.

Re: High Frequency Trading Development Kit

#78
post #4

Why is this interesting?

It looks like you got a few downvotes because people assumed you're being snarky (maybe you are?) -- but I think that most people (even hackers) who work outside of the financial sector are going to wonder why this is on the front page. In short though, it's a 1U blade server with a full-size FPGA in it; implementing your algorithms in hardware makes them extremely fast (thus the mention of the C-to-HDL compiler), wh…

I used to work in the FPGA industry, and we had quite a few people looking at trying to do hardware acceleration of stuff currently done on CPUs. In short, it is hard.

There are plenty of suppliers who offer stuff in the market, for example replacing one half of a dual CPU system with an FPGA and in general some variant of 'pick a fast interconnect and stick an FPGA at the end'

I can't see why this offers anything more to the discussion over a product announcement.

Re: High Frequency Trading Development Kit

#79
post #77
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main point that you're missing is that there is a huge demand for liquidity during a majority of market hours. On average, 7 billion shares of US equities are traded every day. That is a monumentally large number if you think about it. According to the TABB consulting group, roughly 50-70% of American stock trades are done by HFT [1]. Let's assume that 10-20% of trading is non-profit motivated (utilitarian, you c…

I'm still in the "learning the syntax" stage of finance so this is great information. thank you. do you think that one reason why people say bad things about HFT is because they see them being unfairly compensated for taking on what they perceive is a small amount of risk? as in - "come on, how hard can it be to grab a block of stock on an upward trend and quickly sell it." Of course, the more I dig into this, the mo…

do you think that one reason why people say bad things about HFT is because they see them being unfairly compensated for taking on what they perceive is a small amount of risk?

I think that's definitely part of it. The issue is that people don't know how much high frequency traders actually make per contract. The amount is pretty small (on average). Typically, each trade takes on "bite-sized" risk and expects "bite-sized" returns. Do that thousands of times a day, and your bite-sized returns grow to something reasonable, but not ridiculous. Certainly, it's not on the order of how much other forms of proprietary trading make.

I think the other issue is that people don't understand that all traders, HFT or not, take on risk when they enter a trade. A lot of people use terms like "skimming off the top" or "making money for nothing". This indicates to me that they don't realize why market makers should even make money (on average). It's simply risk transfer, and that has a price (on average).

You're right though, identifying bona fide trends are pretty difficult. If it were easy, everyone would be doing it and arbing those trends away.

Re: High Frequency Trading Development Kit

#80
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider a hypothetical stock currently trading at 34.05 bid, 34.06 ask. Trader A puts in a bid for 100 @ 34.06, matching Trader B's ask of 34.06. Normally, B would then sell to A, but thanks to HFT, institute C has the unique and intrinsically unfair position of being able to fulfill A's order. Assuming a moderate holding of stock, you are then able to manipulate the market up and down second-to-second by selectivel…

rgarcia already pointed out that your statement about institute C violating price-time priority is false. You then make a defamatory remark against the industry with zero evidence. Market manipulation is illegal. No respectable trading firm does it. Why? It is unethical and illegal. In a zero sum game where knowledge is power, you know exactly who is buying and who is selling - before John Q. Public knows. Since when…

This went about as well as discussing religion/politics online, i.e. anything but constructive.

Thank you for your contribution.

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