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On the Twitter Hack

schneier.com

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Re: On the Twitter Hack

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How exactly do you propose to split up Twitter? Split the userbase into 100 groups? Who goes in which group? And what happens when people want to switch groups... ultimately coalescing in a single node? Because, you know, network effects. I don't like Twitter either, so I don't use it. It's a really effective solution!

How exactly do you propose to split up AT&T? ...and so on from there. The real answer is to mandate interoperability and equal treatment of competitor content. Then competition could grow on its own. Personally I would just regulate it into oblivion.

AT&T was a monopoly of local phone services. It was split up into geographic regions, each with their own independent physical infrastructure.

There's no physical locality to Twitter. You can't put all the California users in one system and all the Washington users in another.

Re: On the Twitter Hack

#32
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How exactly do you propose to split up Twitter? Split the userbase into 100 groups? Who goes in which group? And what happens when people want to switch groups... ultimately coalescing in a single node? Because, you know, network effects. I don't like Twitter either, so I don't use it. It's a really effective solution!

There's other ways to deal with anti-trust besides breaking the companies apart. Data portability, interoperability, ownership of your own social graph. If these platforms were forced to act more like email, where leaving google for microsoft doesnt mean i can no longer contact my friends, the network effects that give them monopoly-like power diminish. Imagine how ridiculous email would feel if you need a gmail acco…

> "ownership of your own social graph"

What would that mean?

> If these platforms were forced to act more like email

Who decides who's "following" who?

Say I decide to use a competitor. Do I then get to "take" my Twitter followers and can still broadcast to them on Twitter from a different app? Under what conditions can Twitter block your activity? Either they will have to let a lot of spam in or they'll have to ban most non-Twitter activity from coming in.

How do we define interoperability? Do we make Twitter as it is right now a government mandated standard? How do we introduce new features?

I just don't see how you can do all this or how it makes sense at all.

Although email does certain things well it's not without issues. Running your own server is tough. Even many fairly mainstream services have deliverability issues. Spam is rife. And it's especially a big problem when running your own or using a small provider. Email is terrible for initiating unsolicited interactions (in some places might even be illegal).

Re: On the Twitter Hack

#33
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's other ways to deal with anti-trust besides breaking the companies apart. Data portability, interoperability, ownership of your own social graph. If these platforms were forced to act more like email, where leaving google for microsoft doesnt mean i can no longer contact my friends, the network effects that give them monopoly-like power diminish. Imagine how ridiculous email would feel if you need a gmail acco…

So let's imagine Facebook/Twitter/etc was based on open protocols like SMTP... * You'd have the same spam and abuse problem that email has. * You'd have zero control over the information you post to it, just like email. There would be absolutely no way of stopping or even slowing down the Cambridge Analyticas of the world. "Ownership of your own social graph" is complete and utter nonsense. As soon as you share data…

>You'd have the same spam and abuse problem that email has.

Don't you have that already, and they have anti spam measures? How would a facebook post coming from facebook or twitter change what they remove as spam?

Re: On the Twitter Hack

#34
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So let's imagine Facebook/Twitter/etc was based on open protocols like SMTP... * You'd have the same spam and abuse problem that email has. * You'd have zero control over the information you post to it, just like email. There would be absolutely no way of stopping or even slowing down the Cambridge Analyticas of the world. "Ownership of your own social graph" is complete and utter nonsense. As soon as you share data…

>You'd have the same spam and abuse problem that email has. Don't you have that already, and they have anti spam measures? How would a facebook post coming from facebook or twitter change what they remove as spam?

What you're basically proposing is a model of spam where only the content of the message is considered. I do not think that would be very effective in practice, in the modern world.

Email spam filtering is already a lot more powerful, since it can consider things such as IP reputation. (IP reputation would be a non-starter for a federated social network, since it would require passing raw IPs along with messages in the federation protocol. And that is just unthinkable from a privacy perspective).

When all entities posting messages on a social network are managed by the same identity provider, and the identity provider can share information about the account with the social network, you get yet another layer of increase in power. You can, for example, tell whether the account is newly created or not. Or whether it was bulk-created along with 10 other accounts posting similar spam. Or a dozen other account reputation signals which let you classify accounts into organic vs. abusive, and use that to inform the classification of messages from those accounts. And again, the only way this happens is if the identity provider and the social network are one and the same. If they were separate companies, it'd be inexcusable for either party to share detailed information with the other.

Re: On the Twitter Hack

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's with this dogmatic rhetoric, lol? Monopolies are just companies that enjoy a significant edge over their competitors. What makes monopolistic companies inherently always bad?

No, that is not the definition of a monopoly. A monopoly is a entity that holds exclusivity to a good or a service.

Interesting. So according to this definition, Google doesn't have a monopoly in the market of Search engines since there is also Bing[1].

What is the word for it then? Highly-dominant player?

Edit: looks like I'm not alone to have this definition for a monopoly[2].

[1] https://gs.statcounter.com/search-engine-market-share

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23900128

Re: On the Twitter Hack

#36
Core argument is for "building codes" for software that is effectively mission critical infrastructure. Data and identify security--and privacy--concerns may drive a fair amount of regulation in the next five to ten years. Here is Schneier's core thesis:

"There are many security technologies companies like Twitter can implement to better protect themselves and their users; that's not the issue. The problem is economic, and fixing it requires doing two things. One is regulating these companies, and requiring them to spend more money on security. The second is reducing their monopoly power.

The security regulations for banks are complex and detailed. If a low-level banking employee were caught messing around with people's accounts, or if she mistakenly gave her log-in credentials to someone else, the bank would be severely fined. Depending on the details of the incident, senior banking executives could be held personally liable. The threat of these actions helps keep our money safe. Yes, it costs banks money; sometimes it severely cuts into their profits. But the banks have no choice.

The opposite is true for these tech giants. They get to decide what level of security you have on your accounts, and you have no say in the matter. If you are offered security and privacy options, it's because they decided you can have them. There is no regulation. There is no accountability. There isn't even any transparency. Do you know how secure your data is on Facebook, or in Apple's iCloud, or anywhere? You don't. No one except those companies do. Yet they're crucial to the country's national security. And they're the rare consumer product or service allowed to operate without significant government oversight."

Re: On the Twitter Hack

#37
post #34
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You'd have the same spam and abuse problem that email has. Don't you have that already, and they have anti spam measures? How would a facebook post coming from facebook or twitter change what they remove as spam?

What you're basically proposing is a model of spam where only the content of the message is considered. I do not think that would be very effective in practice, in the modern world. Email spam filtering is already a lot more powerful, since it can consider things such as IP reputation. (IP reputation would be a non-starter for a federated social network, since it would require passing raw IPs along with messages in t…

I dont see why the identity providers couldnt pass trust ratings between each other.

Re: On the Twitter Hack

#38
post #37
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're basically proposing is a model of spam where only the content of the message is considered. I do not think that would be very effective in practice, in the modern world. Email spam filtering is already a lot more powerful, since it can consider things such as IP reputation. (IP reputation would be a non-starter for a federated social network, since it would require passing raw IPs along with messages in t…

I dont see why the identity providers couldnt pass trust ratings between each other.

There's one element of the tragedy of the commons. Honest Bob's Social Media Emporium might not be entirely motivated to mark their users as untrusted, when most of the pain of the spam is felt by the other thousands of providers they federate with.

"Hey, doing SMS verification of new accounts is expensive, but required by the other nodes on the network. How about we don't, but say we did?"

Imagine a solution to email spam that replaced looking at IP address reputation with looking at the sender's claim about their own reputation. Laughable idea, right?

The other problem with your suggestion is that you can't do abuse prevention with a single signal, even if it's not Boolean. I even gave an example in the previous post, with checking whether accounts doing similar abuse were clustered together at account creation time.

Re: On the Twitter Hack

#39
post #6

> Companies like Facebook and Twitter have so much power because they are so large, and they face no real competition. I find it hard to take the rest of the article seriously when it's talking about Twitter as a giant monopoly that needs to be broken up... But also the argument seems fundamentally wrong. Account security is a prime example of a place where economies of scale bring a lot of benefit. I would absolutel…

This is very typical of the libertarian streak that underpins HN. I'm always a little turned off by this strange dominate-the-world culture out of SV. I come from a culture that valued open source and interoperable open standards. Where did my people go? Twitter is clearly and objectively a monopoly or in a duopoly with Facebook/Instagram. At my most charitable, I could include YouTube in the mix. But I'd still say m…

This comment is rife with hyperbole to the point I can't take it seriously.

> Twitter has clearly cornered the market for online publishing of thoughts and opinions.

What? Last I heard, Twitter only had about 22% of the USA active on the site[1] compared to 69% using Facebook.

Also, the term "cornering the market" was used when there was a scarcity of a good. I would argue Twitter and FB are very good at dominating time and attention away from other online platforms, but that doesn't make them monopolies or an oligopoly.

Have newspapers ceased to publish OpEds? Has Medium.com been M&Aed by Twitter? Have individual blogs been outlawed? Have the scrappy startups (Gab, Parler) somehow been prevented from competing by some vertical or horizontal integration that Twitter/FB/Google have? You are doing significant mental gymnastics to limit the scope of what you want to be "the market" when you are making this monopoly case.

I don't much like who I am when I'm on Twitter or Facebook so I try to minimize my time on both. But I don't pretend like there are no alternatives or that those companies have any significant control over the "posting of ideas and opinions" market. They have gravity, but that changes quickly as their users ore finicky -- Friendster and MySpace and my former employer (smaller social media company) can tell you that.

[1] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/08/02/10-facts-ab...

Re: On the Twitter Hack

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that is not the definition of a monopoly. A monopoly is a entity that holds exclusivity to a good or a service.

Interesting. So according to this definition, Google doesn't have a monopoly in the market of Search engines since there is also Bing[1]. What is the word for it then? Highly-dominant player? Edit: looks like I'm not alone to have this definition for a monopoly[2]. [1] https://gs.statcounter.com/search-engine-market-share [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23900128

De facto monopoly is not a monopoly. It is a dominant player. But a monopoly really is exclusive.
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