Ireland donates contact tracing app to Linux Foundation • Hacker News Board

Re: Ireland donates contact tracing app to Linux Foundation

#51

Post by somethoughts » Mon, Jul 20, 2020, 5:27 PM UTC

johannes1234321 wrote: post #32

quonn wrote: post #24

In Germany the app was developed by research institutes. Then canceled. Then SAP picked it up and charged 10 million Euros for what is essentially a few 1000 lines of UI code. The German Telekom got the same amount, just „because“ and will additionally charge 2-3 million per month mostly for the hotline (with limited capacity). So the total cost will be 50-100 millions. Despite the fact that most technical work was a…

Nope, it's not 1000 lines of UI code. It is a project with lots of pressure (timeline, politics, ...) and two years of maintenance. Including two apps (iOS and Android) multiple Backend systems and a concept, project management (coordination between government, testing laboratories, ...) looking at the team size (educated guess based on GitHub stats) the hourly rate is on the higher side, but it's still low for a gov…

Reminds me of the following article discussed on HN previously [1]:

I could do that in a weekend! http://danluu.com/sounds-easy/

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12626314

Re: Ireland donates contact tracing app to Linux Foundation

#52

Post by quonn » Mon, Jul 20, 2020, 5:27 PM UTC

skrause wrote: post #47

quonn wrote: post #24

In Germany the app was developed by research institutes. Then canceled. Then SAP picked it up and charged 10 million Euros for what is essentially a few 1000 lines of UI code. The German Telekom got the same amount, just „because“ and will additionally charge 2-3 million per month mostly for the hotline (with limited capacity). So the total cost will be 50-100 millions. Despite the fact that most technical work was a…

The total cost of the app (over a 2-year timeline) is about the same as 1-2 days of Covid testing in Germany. If it helps to reduce the spread of the pandemic it will be absolutely worth it.

The cost of the app over 2 years is 50-100 million as you can check.

That‘s like the cost of 1-2 weeks of testing.

But it‘s silly to argue that just because something necessary costs a lot we can disregard all other costs.

For 50 million you can build a school.

Sure, Germany can afford it. But the cost is ridiculously high.

Re: Ireland donates contact tracing app to Linux Foundation

#53

Post by quonn » Mon, Jul 20, 2020, 5:35 PM UTC

somethoughts wrote: post #51

johannes1234321 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, it's not 1000 lines of UI code. It is a project with lots of pressure (timeline, politics, ...) and two years of maintenance. Including two apps (iOS and Android) multiple Backend systems and a concept, project management (coordination between government, testing laboratories, ...) looking at the team size (educated guess based on GitHub stats) the hourly rate is on the higher side, but it's still low for a gov…

Reminds me of the following article discussed on HN previously [1]: I could do that in a weekend! http://danluu.com/sounds-easy/ [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12626314

The article was about companies actually shipping complex products over a long time. All of that is fully justified.

Not someone taking over a fairly small project, finishing it in 6 weeks and then charging 20 millions for the job.

Re: Ireland donates contact tracing app to Linux Foundation

#54

Post by dividuum » Mon, Jul 20, 2020, 5:35 PM UTC

quonn wrote: post #24

In Germany the app was developed by research institutes. Then canceled. Then SAP picked it up and charged 10 million Euros for what is essentially a few 1000 lines of UI code. The German Telekom got the same amount, just „because“ and will additionally charge 2-3 million per month mostly for the hotline (with limited capacity). So the total cost will be 50-100 millions. Despite the fact that most technical work was a…

Not sure where you get the 1000 lines from. That's ridiculous. `cloc` counts 16k lines of Kotlin for the Android app and 22k lines of Swift for the iOS app. That does not even include other aspects like the server side code or support documentation. Also it's not only the app that had to be build: It required all the notification infrastructure and coordination to deliver test result to the app. This is really one of the very few big government projects where I can't really complain about the costs. There was only one attempt at getting this done right and in time. They managed both.

Re: Ireland donates contact tracing app to Linux Foundation

#55

Post by tmpz22 » Mon, Jul 20, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

quonn wrote: post #24

In Germany the app was developed by research institutes. Then canceled. Then SAP picked it up and charged 10 million Euros for what is essentially a few 1000 lines of UI code. The German Telekom got the same amount, just „because“ and will additionally charge 2-3 million per month mostly for the hotline (with limited capacity). So the total cost will be 50-100 millions. Despite the fact that most technical work was a…

Don't bother, HN users LOVE expensive government IT projects because it artificially inflates their own self worth. Remember those 20 lines of python you wrote before lunch was really hard and worth millions. You are a ROCKSTAR!

Re: Ireland donates contact tracing app to Linux Foundation

#56

Post by quonn » Mon, Jul 20, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

dividuum wrote: post #54

quonn wrote: post #24

In Germany the app was developed by research institutes. Then canceled. Then SAP picked it up and charged 10 million Euros for what is essentially a few 1000 lines of UI code. The German Telekom got the same amount, just „because“ and will additionally charge 2-3 million per month mostly for the hotline (with limited capacity). So the total cost will be 50-100 millions. Despite the fact that most technical work was a…

Not sure where you get the 1000 lines from. That's ridiculous. `cloc` counts 16k lines of Kotlin for the Android app and 22k lines of Swift for the iOS app. That does not even include other aspects like the server side code or support documentation. Also it's not only the app that had to be build: It required all the notification infrastructure and coordination to deliver test result to the app. This is really one of…

Plural „a few 1000“

When I checked the actual Swift code was just a bit less than 10k.

The backend apps are fairly small Spring boot apps.

There was a messy attempt before (not finished in time at all) and they fixed and finished that attempt.

Re: Ireland donates contact tracing app to Linux Foundation

#57

Post by kugelblitz » Mon, Jul 20, 2020, 5:40 PM UTC

dividuum wrote: post #54

quonn wrote: post #24

In Germany the app was developed by research institutes. Then canceled. Then SAP picked it up and charged 10 million Euros for what is essentially a few 1000 lines of UI code. The German Telekom got the same amount, just „because“ and will additionally charge 2-3 million per month mostly for the hotline (with limited capacity). So the total cost will be 50-100 millions. Despite the fact that most technical work was a…

Not sure where you get the 1000 lines from. That's ridiculous. `cloc` counts 16k lines of Kotlin for the Android app and 22k lines of Swift for the iOS app. That does not even include other aspects like the server side code or support documentation. Also it's not only the app that had to be build: It required all the notification infrastructure and coordination to deliver test result to the app. This is really one of…

Yep, am positively surprised how the product turned out. Plus the launch also went well I think, including a comic manual and even an AMA on reddit; I didn't read of any glitches or anything bad either.

Re: Ireland donates contact tracing app to Linux Foundation

#58

Post by quonn » Mon, Jul 20, 2020, 5:43 PM UTC

denzil_correa wrote: post #46

quonn wrote: post #24

In Germany the app was developed by research institutes. Then canceled. Then SAP picked it up and charged 10 million Euros for what is essentially a few 1000 lines of UI code. The German Telekom got the same amount, just „because“ and will additionally charge 2-3 million per month mostly for the hotline (with limited capacity). So the total cost will be 50-100 millions. Despite the fact that most technical work was a…

> In Germany the app was developed by research institutes. Then canceled. Why was it canceled?

Because it was a mess. A privacy mess. Also because the fact that supporting iOS well requires using the Apple framework was ignored. And also lot‘s of politics.

Re: Ireland donates contact tracing app to Linux Foundation

#59

Post by mercer » Mon, Jul 20, 2020, 5:43 PM UTC

quonn wrote: post #24

In Germany the app was developed by research institutes. Then canceled. Then SAP picked it up and charged 10 million Euros for what is essentially a few 1000 lines of UI code. The German Telekom got the same amount, just „because“ and will additionally charge 2-3 million per month mostly for the hotline (with limited capacity). So the total cost will be 50-100 millions. Despite the fact that most technical work was a…

I think what's worse is that I suspect the whole project won't be all that useful, and a drop in the bucket compared to society-wide (enforced) change in behavior.

From everything I've read, this kind of app 1) is only really useful if enough people actively use it, and 2) have serious issues with false positives because of inherent positional inaccuracy (or inability to be accurate without sucking battery).

In regards to 1, in my country at least, unless using the app would be mandatory, I know many more people who will refuse to use it or be too lazy to use it. And I'm pretty sure hell will freeze over before the government can make usage (and owning a smartphone) mandatory.

Re: Ireland donates contact tracing app to Linux Foundation

#60

Post by rsynnott » Mon, Jul 20, 2020, 5:48 PM UTC

mercer wrote: post #59

quonn wrote: post #24

In Germany the app was developed by research institutes. Then canceled. Then SAP picked it up and charged 10 million Euros for what is essentially a few 1000 lines of UI code. The German Telekom got the same amount, just „because“ and will additionally charge 2-3 million per month mostly for the hotline (with limited capacity). So the total cost will be 50-100 millions. Despite the fact that most technical work was a…

I think what's worse is that I suspect the whole project won't be all that useful, and a drop in the bucket compared to society-wide (enforced) change in behavior. From everything I've read, this kind of app 1) is only really useful if enough people actively use it, and 2) have serious issues with false positives because of inherent positional inaccuracy (or inability to be accurate without sucking battery). In regar…

So, false positives may not matter in some conditions. Ireland is currently reporting anything from 5 to 30 cases per day, doing anything from 3000 to 10000 tests per day, and has capacity for at least 15000 tests per day. If the app doubles the number of tests being done and finds a few new cases, that's fine; it's still a lot better than NOT finding those cases.

These apps would, granted, be far less useful in places with major ongoing outbreaks and inadequate testing infrastructure; lockdowns should be used to bring numbers down to the level where this sort of thing is workable.

(1) is probably a greater problem. Ireland has about 30% uptake, which probably isn't enough.