Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The German Problem with Tor

worldofmatthew.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 131 posts

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#81

Post by dang »

qayxc wrote: post #45
elchin wrote: post #4

"In reality, the German government has a double standard when it comes to the right to privacy. They will fully support that right if it's company's violating your privacy (especially, if they are American because protectionism) but in contrast, the German will give itself as many powers as it can to spy on its own citizens and those abroad." This.

Sure, relocate to Russia - you know, a country that doesn't even have free internet anymore and just like China pushes for totally state-controlled national network... Yeah, right. To point a finger at Germany while recommending Switzerland or Russia of all places as alternatives is just beyond retarded. So there have been a few (two, apparently) raids/seizing of documents in past 15 years, so what? Why no mention of…

Can you please make your substantive points without ranting or calling names? We want curious conversation here, and those things destroy curiosity like firebombs on a city park. Especially when the topic is in charged territory as with national themes.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#82

Post by matheusmoreira »

_Microft wrote: post #12
elchin wrote: post #4

"In reality, the German government has a double standard when it comes to the right to privacy. They will fully support that right if it's company's violating your privacy (especially, if they are American because protectionism) but in contrast, the German will give itself as many powers as it can to spy on its own citizens and those abroad." This.

That's only double standards if one considers states and companies as being in the same position. A state and a company have vastly different goals. A state should care for its citizens, this includes protections against threats to public safety (terror, organized crime) and surveillance is a tool in the box for that. A company on the other hand, would have no issues fleecing people and abusing their power for profit…

> A company on the other hand, would have no issues fleecing people and abusing their power for profit if they only could.

Governments often abuse their power. They have absolutely no problem with that either. It's precisely because they do this that total population surveillance should be impossible rather than a standard government tool.

Abuse of surveillance powers could manifest in any number of ways. For example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOVEINT

The only way to prevent abuse of power is to take the power away.

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#83

Post by sadfklsjlkjwt »

chki wrote: post #78
DuskStar wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that the Court tries not to do something like that is because it is also a political actor searching for stability. This sounds to me like someone saying that the Queen of England has the power to dissolve parliament - and just doesn't for political concerns. (Those political concerns being that if she ever exercises that power, it'll be removed) At some point you have to recognize that if you can only use…

I can see where you're coming from but this analogy does not hold up. The German Constitutional Court (GCC) does exercise its powers, but it tries not to break anything, therefore it gives the responsible actors some time to change the law/their behavior. Maybe another example: The Court decided that the (specific calculation of the) German property tax was unconstitutional. But if they just declared the whole tax vo…

You originally posted a response to this.

> Rulings of the constitutional court have almost no real life consequences. If there is a negative ruling the parliament is given ample time before the unconstitutional law must be replaced. If there is any replacement within that time, the same law, formulated differently, is passed.

To say that the court does have power. But your example is an example of exactly what the OP was saying happens!

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#84

Post by pravus »

afiori wrote: post #32
dabbledash wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would think the Germans of all people would know better than to view the state with this kind of naivety. I don’t think the state is dangerous because it gets in the way of profit (though it can do that) but because it can directly oppress its people in all kinds of violent ways. The mitigating factor is supposed to be that people can hold their government accountable, but allow the government to snoop on everyon…

I can't really bring myself to agree with this view of the world. To me it sounds like saying that parents are dangerous because they can mistreat children or that employers are dangerous because they can oppress employees. Obviously those are true statements, but they are also horrible first approximations. Parents are supposed to be caregivers, employers are supposed to be source of opportunities, and governments a…

There is a significant difference in the relationship between parent-to-child and The State-to-Citizen. Children mature and achieve autonomy from parental control and can escape violence if present.

When am I ever allowed my autonomy from The State? According to its laws I am always subject to its rule regardless of my vote, intentions, ethics, personal values, or will. My only defense is the system itself and I have been given good evidence to not trust its outcomes or intentions regardless of how it is advertised.

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#85

Post by kilo_bravo_3 »

I ran an exit node about a decade ago.

There are no freedom-fighting journalists in repressed countries using TOR.

There are only pornographers, BitTorrent users, crypto-haxxing "Z3r0cools" who use it to feel like they are doing something crypto-haxxy, and botnet command and controllers.

Countries in which TOR will be useful treat TOR users as de-facto criminals or block it altogether. Using TOR in a totalitarian state (and it is easily detectable) is worse than speaking out against the state.

Countries in which TOR is not needed are full of crypto-haxxing "Z3r0cools" who think they are actually helping someone by promoting TOR.

When you mention that TOR was an experiment-- one that failed-- to shield spies from foreign governments that crypto-haxxing Z3r0cools co-opted you get scorn.

When you point out that TOR fails in its primary purpose: non-attributable access to information or communications in totalitarian regimes you get scorn.

There is no space for criticism of TOR which makes it not a product or technology but a religion-like ideology.

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#86

Post by peterwoerner »

_Microft wrote: post #12
elchin wrote: post #4

"In reality, the German government has a double standard when it comes to the right to privacy. They will fully support that right if it's company's violating your privacy (especially, if they are American because protectionism) but in contrast, the German will give itself as many powers as it can to spy on its own citizens and those abroad." This.

That's only double standards if one considers states and companies as being in the same position. A state and a company have vastly different goals. A state should care for its citizens, this includes protections against threats to public safety (terror, organized crime) and surveillance is a tool in the box for that. A company on the other hand, would have no issues fleecing people and abusing their power for profit…

I don't think it is a fair point to say that the American view that govs are bad because they get into the way of companies.

The view is more along the lines of they are corruptible and frequently serve the interest of the business and political elite at the expense of the median citizen. Moreover, the government will use its power to thwart attempts at fixing the government. Therefore we should limit the power of the government.

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#87

Post by qayxc »

IncRnd wrote: post #76
qayxc wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no shades of grey here - state actors have access to every internet node, fibre optic cables, operating systems and hardware. So unless you take your time to build your own CPU, main board and modem and only use our own private direct fibre connection, you're a potential target for being spied on. It's as simple as that. You can make things harder by encrypting your traffic, but that's possible regardless o…

> The only computer that is safe from attacks is not connected to any network and only ever used in a windowless room surrounded by reinforced concrete walls. Perhaps such a computer is safe from the types of attacks you contemplate, but through-the-wall surveillance has been happening for decades.

I only ever heard of such attacks through windows and ceilings, never through reinforced walls.

This sounds very intriguing - do have any sources that explain how this work? Do these techniques use vibrations or scattered radiation?

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#88

Post by marta_morena_25 »

qayxc wrote: post #51
rhn_mk1 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a useless reply. There is no black and white, and the parent is asking about the shades of graay.

There are no shades of grey here - state actors have access to every internet node, fibre optic cables, operating systems and hardware. So unless you take your time to build your own CPU, main board and modem and only use our own private direct fibre connection, you're a potential target for being spied on. It's as simple as that. You can make things harder by encrypting your traffic, but that's possible regardless o…

You contradict yourself. If there are no shades of gray, why don't you post a link here to a website with cameras into your home, a direct link to a microphone you carry at all times, passwords to all your accounts and the public "View" link to a dropbox with all you data.

Because you know... Since there is no 100% privacy and safety, there is just none. So why even bother?

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#89

Post by DataDaoDe »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #82
_Microft wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's only double standards if one considers states and companies as being in the same position. A state and a company have vastly different goals. A state should care for its citizens, this includes protections against threats to public safety (terror, organized crime) and surveillance is a tool in the box for that. A company on the other hand, would have no issues fleecing people and abusing their power for profit…

> A company on the other hand, would have no issues fleecing people and abusing their power for profit if they only could. Governments often abuse their power. They have absolutely no problem with that either. It's precisely because they do this that total population surveillance should be impossible rather than a standard government tool. Abuse of surveillance powers could manifest in any number of ways. For example…

> Governments often abuse their power. They have absolutely no problem with that either.

The way I think about it is this. Governments and companies are both organizations made up of people. Governments have additional powers (for instance, military force, police power, etc.) over companies. The checks and balances for gov't abuse of power depend on the type i.e. representative democracy, republic, etc. And the checks and balances for company abuse of power are however the markets are configured.

There are different incentives at an organizational and people level both in gov't and companies. But in general, I tend to think its easier to prevent "company abuse" of power b/c ultimately they have to deliver a product which people can choose to buy or not - in this sense we all have a direct democracy with companies, unlike Gov't.

For instance, if I choose to not buy any more Google products, then however small and insignificant it may be Google is going to notice my change of preference on the bottom line of financial statements just as will the other company whom I deem better aligned to my preferences.

This type of direct control is currently not possible with governmental institutions unfortunately.

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#90

Post by gmueckl »

asimovfan wrote: post #69
gmueckl wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These aren't attacks, just protests that are sometimes big enough to be mentioned in mainstream media to then be summarily dimissed by politicians, sometimes in very condescending tones or even derogatory language. The actual impact on the lawmaking process is negligible. Politicians have figured out that ignoring protests of privacy advocates is "safe", that is, it won't affect their reelection. Suing against the le…

If those attacks are completely negligable, was it the progressiveness and open mindedness of politicians that brought us to this point in history in terms of civil rights etc?

It was Hitler and Stalin. The Federal Republic of Germany was set up to have a constitution with very strong protections of individual freedom and democracy in response to the highjacking of the Weimar Republic constitution by the NSDAP. That state then evolved into a counterexample to German Democratic Republic while slowly gaining more and more independence from the Allied oversight that was put in place initially. There is a strong framework of rights and freedoms into the constitution as a legacy of these formation years. The main power that keeps that in place is the constitutional court with its long history of landmark decisions and a general tendency to overturn the steady trickle of new legislation that seeks to limit personal rights, mostly in the guise of better prosecution of crimes. For example, the right to control the use of one's own data is a result of ruling of that court. No lawmaker would have come up with that.
Post reply on HN