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Ireland donates contact tracing app to Linux Foundation

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Re: Ireland donates contact tracing app to Linux Foundation

#41

Post by quonn »

tlarkworthy wrote: post #40
quonn wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said a few 1000 and I actually browsed the code on Github when it came out. There were just six weeks to develop it. And the concepts where developed before by public research institutes for a tiny fraction of that price (not included). (If you insist, here is a small calculation. Let‘s say we charge a whopping 500 Euros per hour per engineer. In other words an engineer that costs 1 million per year. And we have 6…

20M for the boost of Germany's worldwide status is a drop in the ocean. The money was well spent, Germany did not embarrass themselves by penny pinching. It needed to work, and it appears to. Compare this to the UK who is still flapping around.

It doesn‘t work great. I actually run it on my phone. It has silly bugs, despite the simplicity.

Additionally, for that price you could have easily have 3 independent teams develop it and take the best one and still be cheaper and better.

I hope someone will challenge this in court. I don‘t think they can get away without a call for bids which should have been done (across Europe, as the law requires).

Re: Ireland donates contact tracing app to Linux Foundation

#42

Post by johannes1234321 »

quonn wrote: post #34
johannes1234321 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, it's not 1000 lines of UI code. It is a project with lots of pressure (timeline, politics, ...) and two years of maintenance. Including two apps (iOS and Android) multiple Backend systems and a concept, project management (coordination between government, testing laboratories, ...) looking at the team size (educated guess based on GitHub stats) the hourly rate is on the higher side, but it's still low for a gov…

I said a few 1000 and I actually browsed the code on Github when it came out. There were just six weeks to develop it. And the concepts where developed before by public research institutes for a tiny fraction of that price (not included). (If you insist, here is a small calculation. Let‘s say we charge a whopping 500 Euros per hour per engineer. In other words an engineer that costs 1 million per year. And we have 6…

First mistake: you calculate 6 weeks of dev time ignoring that SAP got 11.5M including maintenance for 2 years. Certainly amount of work in two years time is lower than initial dev work, but not zero.

Secondly you are only taking in "development work", but such a contract entails other things - certainly there is a penalty if they deliver too late - there is legal risk to cover, if they deliver crap in some legal sense they are liable - probably SAP had other contracts which they had to postpone - count in all the lawyers writing the contract :-D

And yes, they certainly made a profit out of this and yes a proper biding procedure might be better, but given the timelines and the transparency I think it's ok.

Re: Ireland donates contact tracing app to Linux Foundation

#43

Post by johannes1234321 »

quonn wrote: post #41
tlarkworthy wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

20M for the boost of Germany's worldwide status is a drop in the ocean. The money was well spent, Germany did not embarrass themselves by penny pinching. It needed to work, and it appears to. Compare this to the UK who is still flapping around.

It doesn‘t work great. I actually run it on my phone. It has silly bugs, despite the simplicity. Additionally, for that price you could have easily have 3 independent teams develop it and take the best one and still be cheaper and better. I hope someone will challenge this in court. I don‘t think they can get away without a call for bids which should have been done (across Europe, as the law requires).

Yes it has bugs, but most bugs are from the system framework ... they could have handled those better, but the cause is often out of their control

Re: Ireland donates contact tracing app to Linux Foundation

#44

Post by quonn »

johannes1234321 wrote: post #42
quonn wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said a few 1000 and I actually browsed the code on Github when it came out. There were just six weeks to develop it. And the concepts where developed before by public research institutes for a tiny fraction of that price (not included). (If you insist, here is a small calculation. Let‘s say we charge a whopping 500 Euros per hour per engineer. In other words an engineer that costs 1 million per year. And we have 6…

First mistake: you calculate 6 weeks of dev time ignoring that SAP got 11.5M including maintenance for 2 years. Certainly amount of work in two years time is lower than initial dev work, but not zero. Secondly you are only taking in "development work", but such a contract entails other things - certainly there is a penalty if they deliver too late - there is legal risk to cover, if they deliver crap in some legal sen…

Okay, and the additional 1.5 million should suffice to „maintain“ an app that will not need or get any new features.

Let‘s assume another million for lawyers „writing the contract“. It‘s still far off.

Additionally let‘s remember the 20 million is just for the development. It does not include running the thing. That‘s what the other 50+ million are for.

I don‘t agree. I run a business myself. I charge plenty. I know how much DAX size companies charge as well. The numbers don‘t add up, and this is especially true for something that could have been done pro bono by SAP in the current situation where pretty much everyone tries to do whatever they can.

Re: Ireland donates contact tracing app to Linux Foundation

#45

Post by tannhaeuser »

quonn wrote: post #24

In Germany the app was developed by research institutes. Then canceled. Then SAP picked it up and charged 10 million Euros for what is essentially a few 1000 lines of UI code. The German Telekom got the same amount, just „because“ and will additionally charge 2-3 million per month mostly for the hotline (with limited capacity). So the total cost will be 50-100 millions. Despite the fact that most technical work was a…

Hey developers of German Corona Warn-App. Just wanted to say even I have installed it, not because I'm convinced it'll help too much (the verdict is still open I guess) but because it's a good project result given the constraints, and there's no doubt an effort was made to deliver the best possible privacy, so I didn't want to be the one boycotting it or something.

Re: Ireland donates contact tracing app to Linux Foundation

#46

Post by denzil_correa »

quonn wrote: post #24

In Germany the app was developed by research institutes. Then canceled. Then SAP picked it up and charged 10 million Euros for what is essentially a few 1000 lines of UI code. The German Telekom got the same amount, just „because“ and will additionally charge 2-3 million per month mostly for the hotline (with limited capacity). So the total cost will be 50-100 millions. Despite the fact that most technical work was a…

> In Germany the app was developed by research institutes. Then canceled.

Why was it canceled?

Re: Ireland donates contact tracing app to Linux Foundation

#47

Post by skrause »

quonn wrote: post #24

In Germany the app was developed by research institutes. Then canceled. Then SAP picked it up and charged 10 million Euros for what is essentially a few 1000 lines of UI code. The German Telekom got the same amount, just „because“ and will additionally charge 2-3 million per month mostly for the hotline (with limited capacity). So the total cost will be 50-100 millions. Despite the fact that most technical work was a…

The total cost of the app (over a 2-year timeline) is about the same as 1-2 days of Covid testing in Germany. If it helps to reduce the spread of the pandemic it will be absolutely worth it.

Re: Ireland donates contact tracing app to Linux Foundation

#48

Post by johannes1234321 »

quonn wrote: post #44
johannes1234321 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First mistake: you calculate 6 weeks of dev time ignoring that SAP got 11.5M including maintenance for 2 years. Certainly amount of work in two years time is lower than initial dev work, but not zero. Secondly you are only taking in "development work", but such a contract entails other things - certainly there is a penalty if they deliver too late - there is legal risk to cover, if they deliver crap in some legal sen…

Okay, and the additional 1.5 million should suffice to „maintain“ an app that will not need or get any new features. Let‘s assume another million for lawyers „writing the contract“. It‘s still far off. Additionally let‘s remember the 20 million is just for the development. It does not include running the thing. That‘s what the other 50+ million are for. I don‘t agree. I run a business myself. I charge plenty. I know…

Operations for two years are actually not 20 but 40M. But this includes two phone hotlines, thus actual labor cost. (And by then the development costs are close to irrelevant already ...)

Re: Ireland donates contact tracing app to Linux Foundation

#49

Post by denzil_correa »

quonn wrote: post #24

In Germany the app was developed by research institutes. Then canceled. Then SAP picked it up and charged 10 million Euros for what is essentially a few 1000 lines of UI code. The German Telekom got the same amount, just „because“ and will additionally charge 2-3 million per month mostly for the hotline (with limited capacity). So the total cost will be 50-100 millions. Despite the fact that most technical work was a…

In case, someone asks a source for this number.

> The German government says its app cost 20 million euros ($22.7 million) to develop and will require 2.5 million to 3.5 million euros per month to operate. It’s available in German and English, with Turkish and other languages to follow.

https://apnews.com/fd6cc8a04ae77185110cf8d70cf585a1

Re: Ireland donates contact tracing app to Linux Foundation

#50

Post by number6 »

quonn wrote: post #38
johannes1234321 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, it's not 1000 lines of UI code. It is a project with lots of pressure (timeline, politics, ...) and two years of maintenance. Including two apps (iOS and Android) multiple Backend systems and a concept, project management (coordination between government, testing laboratories, ...) looking at the team size (educated guess based on GitHub stats) the hourly rate is on the higher side, but it's still low for a gov…

Peanuts compared to the cost of COVID? How is that a valid measure?

I think a lot of people could have made a good working app for a lot less. But on the other side: if SAP and Telekom had failed no one would have blamed the government.

And if the both had failed their reputation would have suffered a lot. Well it's not the best as it is, so well.

They have a top team and delivered on time. Thats rare in software development.

And 20 million are nothing compared to the tax break which costs about 3 trillion.

For the government it's money well spend in two german flagship companies.

My guess most of it was insurance money in case something went wrong, so these companies would have taken the fall.

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