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Any claim without a URI should be treated as suspicious

shkspr.mobi

151–160 of 282 posts

Re: Any claim without a URI should be treated as suspicious

#151
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About five or six years ago I spent a long time making outrageous claims on Reddit, and I'd wrap various parts of it in link tags. The links would go to random nytime articles, random papers, or simply nowhere at all. Then I'd watch as the outrageous claim propagated (this in niche communities). It was absolutely terrifying. I never, ever got called out. EDIT: I'm remembering now I'd pretend to be all sorts of people…

There is a huge asymmetry between the effort to make an outrageous claim and that to refute one. > I never, ever got called out. In Reddit parlance: ain't nobody got time for that

They also have an inherent information theoretic advantage over non-outrageous claims when consumed by someone who is unable to discern their veracity.

Re: Any claim without a URI should be treated as suspicious

#152
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this could be a great application for a DAG blockchain, with the axioms of a given scientific field as initial seed blocks. Then any proofs can be derived using the previous blocks, and, should any proof be disproved the whole sub chain depending on it would collapse and need to be rewritten “remined”

Now you only need to convince the scientists to write proofs in their papers in Coq or Isabelle so that you can check them.

or Lean

Re: Any claim without a URI should be treated as suspicious

#153
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still remember one fake news site that took this to the extreme, in that it linked to a story that flat out didn't exist on the site it linked to. You clicked on the link, and you just ended up with a 404 error page. The fact that fooled anyone should probably give you a worrying insight into how many people are willing to trust/distrust links without even clicking on them. But yeah, either way, make sure the link…

That's also a good reason for news orgs to have strict policies around never taking down articles or changing URLs. It happens enough to give cover to the behavior you cite. News sites could also replace their 404 page with an explanation "there used to be an article here, but we decided to remove it because ____" or "there's never been an article at this address".

There's a HTTP status code for pages which were deleted: 410 Gone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_HTTP_status_codes#4xx_...

This was famously used by Mark Pilgrim:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Pilgrim#%22Disappearance%...

Re: Any claim without a URI should be treated as suspicious

#154
post #116
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this could be a great application for a DAG blockchain, with the axioms of a given scientific field as initial seed blocks. Then any proofs can be derived using the previous blocks, and, should any proof be disproved the whole sub chain depending on it would collapse and need to be rewritten “remined”

As always, this solution doesn't benefit from a blockchain structure. You could do the same thing with an immutable, publicly readable database. The currently unsolvable problem is that there is often disagreement about axioms and proofs bring disproved. Even mathematical proofs can be very controversial. This is one of many problems that humans can't solve yet, which means it's hard/impossible to teach computers to…

Axioms can also be mutually contradictory and this may not be obvious initially. Then you can prove and disprove everything at the same time.

Re: Any claim without a URI should be treated as suspicious

#155
post #116
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this could be a great application for a DAG blockchain, with the axioms of a given scientific field as initial seed blocks. Then any proofs can be derived using the previous blocks, and, should any proof be disproved the whole sub chain depending on it would collapse and need to be rewritten “remined”

As always, this solution doesn't benefit from a blockchain structure. You could do the same thing with an immutable, publicly readable database. The currently unsolvable problem is that there is often disagreement about axioms and proofs bring disproved. Even mathematical proofs can be very controversial. This is one of many problems that humans can't solve yet, which means it's hard/impossible to teach computers to…

Where does that immutability come from? If you have a centralized service controlling the flow of knowledge, this could have its own consequences.

Maybe some sort of CRDT + gossip network? But at that point you are quite close to a blockchain.

(Not that I'm confident such a thing is a good idea, but I do think that a decent portion of the blockchain stack makes sense given the idea)

Re: Any claim without a URI should be treated as suspicious

#156
In general I do agree citations are a good thing. But in this case and ones like it, does it really matter? Someone is making a humorous statement, it’s not of particular importance to me if it was made 100 years ago first or not, so why should I care to look it up?

Rephrased: what would change if you found the image was “fake”?

Re: Any claim without a URI should be treated as suspicious

#157
post #59

I hate URL fights. I give little extra value to people providing links with their clams. I largely given up providing links to information when called out as well. It's not worth the time. Discussion on the internet is broken in most places (HN is less broken than most). I find little value providing URLs. Much of the time I provide them, few folks seem to read it, fewer actually want to read it in an intellectually…

Page 58 of "The Art of Conversing With Men" (an 1805 translation of a 1788 work by Knigge) shows that trolls were a thing in the eighteenth century: > "There are people who pretend to know every thing better than others, contradict every one, frequently against their own conviction, merely for the sake of disputing. There are others who are fond of speaking in parodoxes , and accustomed to maintain assertions which n…

To be honest, lately I've been coming around to the idea that a culture that permits you to simply punch someone who walks up to you and flagrantly insults your spouse is probably more civilized than our culture where the puncher faces years of jail time, while the troll gets to do it risk-free.

Let me explicitly say I don't mean this as something to draw out much farther than the example I give. I don't mean to punch people who merely disagree with you politically, or beating them excessively, or any other bizarre extrapolation you may want to accuse me of. It doesn't even particularly apply online since there's no physical interaction component. I'm just thinking, you know, you get what you reward, and when you permit endless, endless trolling but punish the natural human reactions to it, you're going to get a culture of trolls and churlishness. We're paradoxically both too nice and too churlish as a culture right now.

https://centerforinquiry.org/news/buzz_aldrin_punches_moon-l... (& note the punch wasn't for the conspiracy or denial, it was for flat-out insult.)

(There is moderation in the process, in that generally the people around you are going to need to mostly agree that was justified. This prevents total chaos. One must aggressively, persistently, and willfully step over the cultural lines for this, it is not something that would be deployed for every minor disagreement.)

Re: Any claim without a URI should be treated as suspicious

#158
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still remember one fake news site that took this to the extreme, in that it linked to a story that flat out didn't exist on the site it linked to. You clicked on the link, and you just ended up with a 404 error page. The fact that fooled anyone should probably give you a worrying insight into how many people are willing to trust/distrust links without even clicking on them. But yeah, either way, make sure the link…

I still remember one fake news site that took this to the extreme, in that it linked to a story that flat out didn't exist on the site it linked to. More common what I see is these sites just link to other articles on the site as a "source" for claims made in more recent articles. You almost never see sources to external sites or resources, its just internal site links all the way down.

Many news sites will do this to keep you on-site instead of bouncing elsewhere.

Re: Any claim without a URI should be treated as suspicious

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you should be able to make an argument without resting primarily and directly on other people's words, even if you largely rest on other people's ideas. whether it convinces any particular person is largely out of your control, and shouldn't consume the debate. citations don't change that calculus.

Citations can give data , though. If your ideas are based on more than just your own experience, you need external data.

but then you run into the old saw about damn lies and statistics. the argument needs to stand on its own and be taken in good faith, otherwise discussion is futile.

(edit: that's not to say provide no links, just that it won't make the argument, per my other comment, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23899088, ironically, a citation.)

Re: Any claim without a URI should be treated as suspicious

#160
> The whole investigation took me 5 minutes. A Web search, a few clicks, and some ctrl+f‘ing

I think this is the core issue with this post. There is an intersection between how much this new claim would update my mental model and how much time it will take to prove. The idea of "how much time it will take to prove" is important, because we all have a limited amount of intellectual bandwidth that we use to receive and integrate new information.

Intellectual bandwidth means we need prioritization. Without prioritization we have two suboptimal states that are available. The first is where we are being DDOS'd in bad-faith by low-value claims, that have some amount of work to prove. The second is that whichever claims we do resolve are likely not the set of claims which result in optimal utility; updating our mental model results in utility, assuming that our update function only accepts "good" updates.

One strategy, that I think I use, is to break things into four categories: (1) A claim close to my current mental model (2) A claim not far but not close to my mental model (3) A claim far from my mental model (4) A claim unrelated to my mental model.

If a claim is close to my mental model (1), I'd probably just accept it out of hand. This newspaper clipping is one example, because proving that the clipping is real does not update my mental model (Nor does disproving it, honestly), so it is low value. This is the cheap filter that reduces redundancy.

If a claim is far from my mental model (3), I'll probably just dismiss it out of hand. I'm not going to go to the work to prove or disprove something, insofar. There are exceptions here, wherein the statement is so orthogonal to the mental model that it might have high value and is therefore still with looking into. In my experience, claims of high value that are completely orthogonal from my mental model tend to be rarer than claims of low value. One case I can think of is an article on oil prices I read, where there was a claim that the breakeven oil price was ~$200 a barrel as support for Iran having a broken economy. This didn't make sense, as it would mean Iran is not a viable economy even with oil, but then why are western nations wasting political capital embargoing an unviable product? So I spent time investigating it (Investing intellectual bandwidth). In the end, it seemed like a bad-faith argument as it assumed that the oil price would be the only thing to balance the Iranian national budget and didn't speak to the fact that Iran is subject to artificial export constraints via embargoes. Engaging with claims in this category seems to result in finding a lot of gravel and maybe a piece of gold from time to time.

The medium category (2) is where I think most of us should be spending our time, the frontiers of our mental model where things are both foreign as well as familiar. When you can take different parts of evidence and see that some of it makes sense and some of it doesn't. I think this area is ripe for bad-faith disruption, as I'm much more willing to engage with this type of premise. I remember reading and putting down a book lately because it proposed an interesting question, around what has changed in the America of my parent's and of today. It was asserting, without even worrying about supporting evidence, that traditional family values were the cause.

The last category (4) is not an unimportant one, which is just the area where you might say "I don't know" or "Why does that matter". If someone claims Charles II was born in 1629, I also wouldn't derive much value by looking it up and saying "No, he was actually born in 1630". In that sense, it is low-value information because it doesn't intersect with meaning for me.

Overall, I think the problem with the line of thinking I quoted is that it puts a lot of burden on the individual for what usually has zero or negative value to that individual. That work exists whether or not a URI is included, and is possible exacerbated by there now being "evidence" provided even insofar as the linked context provides no value.

Aside: The phrase "ctrl+f'ing" written out is a bit humorous.

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