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The German Problem with Tor

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Re: The German Problem with Tor

#51

Post by qayxc »

rhn_mk1 wrote: post #38
qayxc wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are none. Full stop. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just delusional.

This is a useless reply. There is no black and white, and the parent is asking about the shades of graay.

There are no shades of grey here - state actors have access to every internet node, fibre optic cables, operating systems and hardware.

So unless you take your time to build your own CPU, main board and modem and only use our own private direct fibre connection, you're a potential target for being spied on.

It's as simple as that. You can make things harder by encrypting your traffic, but that's possible regardless of were your Tor relay is located at. And even then some crypto algos are known to have been deliberately weakened by intelligence agencies so you best be a crypto expert as well if you're really that paranoid.

The irony is that most (not all!) people who are ever so concerned about these things still use their smartphones (even though EVERY GSM/UMTS/4G protocol has been hacked at this point and is thus insecure), use cloud computing (either directly or indirectly via 3rd party services like Uber) and post on social networks.

The only computer that is safe from attacks is not connected to any network and only ever used in a windowless room surrounded by reinforced concrete walls.

The only information that is truly private is information you don't share in the first place.

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#52

Post by eldaisfish »

afiori wrote: post #32
dabbledash wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would think the Germans of all people would know better than to view the state with this kind of naivety. I don’t think the state is dangerous because it gets in the way of profit (though it can do that) but because it can directly oppress its people in all kinds of violent ways. The mitigating factor is supposed to be that people can hold their government accountable, but allow the government to snoop on everyon…

I can't really bring myself to agree with this view of the world. To me it sounds like saying that parents are dangerous because they can mistreat children or that employers are dangerous because they can oppress employees. Obviously those are true statements, but they are also horrible first approximations. Parents are supposed to be caregivers, employers are supposed to be source of opportunities, and governments a…

the fundamental flaw in your analogy is that there is an authority above both parents and employers - the state.

Who will watch the watchmen? Once the state legislates overreach into law, who will challenge them effectively?

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#53

Post by tjenkinsqs »

afiori wrote: post #32
dabbledash wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would think the Germans of all people would know better than to view the state with this kind of naivety. I don’t think the state is dangerous because it gets in the way of profit (though it can do that) but because it can directly oppress its people in all kinds of violent ways. The mitigating factor is supposed to be that people can hold their government accountable, but allow the government to snoop on everyon…

I can't really bring myself to agree with this view of the world. To me it sounds like saying that parents are dangerous because they can mistreat children or that employers are dangerous because they can oppress employees. Obviously those are true statements, but they are also horrible first approximations. Parents are supposed to be caregivers, employers are supposed to be source of opportunities, and governments a…

Here is the fundamental flaw with the parent analogy:

Both the government and the citizens are adults. Don't treat me like a child. Government is not supposed to keep us safe from ourselves but protect our god given freedoms.

In the US the government is of the people, by the people, for the people.

The other argument that people in government are smarter is laughable, at best.

Government is a necessary evil, but it needs to be limited.

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#54

Post by Kalium »

jupp0r wrote: post #14

Keep in mind that government IT jobs in Germany are almost comically underpaid. People competent enough to perform timing correlation attacks usually choose the >2x salary industry jobs. The running gag was that this is the greatest protection for citizens privacy. Unfortunately, an unintended consequence is that the government looks to shady companies like Gamma to do its job. This leads to FinFisher, which is norma…

> to be used against German law enforcement.

Against, or by? I'm not trying to nitpick, just make sense of this. You imply that the German government hired Gamma to gain access to FinFisher, and then talk about it being used against German law enforcement. This seems internally inconsistent.

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#55

Post by gruez »

alborzb wrote: post #43
chopin wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rulings of the constitutional court have almost no real life consequences. If there is a negative ruling the parliament is given ample time before the unconstitutional law must be replaced. If there is any replacement within that time, the same law, formulated differently, is passed.

so what you're saying is that the court... works?

It sounds different than something like the US, where if a law is unconstitutional it's struck down immediately (rather than giving time for the legislature to fix it), and the defendant acquitted (not sure what happens in germany).

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#56

Post by realityking »

chopin wrote: post #24
terminalcommand wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many places in the world, the government is corrupt and there is no transparency. I’d be surprised if people trust their governments in Poland, Bulgaria etc. Government officials have more power to abuse people than companies. At least Germany has an established constitutional court that can still resist the politicians to some degree. I think the american view is that governments are bad because they can be used…

Rulings of the constitutional court have almost no real life consequences. If there is a negative ruling the parliament is given ample time before the unconstitutional law must be replaced. If there is any replacement within that time, the same law, formulated differently, is passed.

The process is long and yes, sometimes parliament iterates on laws to bring them into compliance with the constitution (and sometimes those changes get struck down again) but it's patently false to claim that the constitutional court doesn't have consequences. (real life is tough a claim to argue against - what is a real life consequence?)

Some consequential decision that come to my mind (without judging whether these were good or bad decision): - they derived the right to privacy (Informationelle Selbstbestimmung) based on other rights. This is now firmly established in the judicial process. - They struck down the law allowing the government to shoot down hijacked planes (no replacement) - Secret paternity test are illegal and hold no value as evidence - mass deployment of automatic number-plate recognition is illegal - they set the barrier for voting machines so high it's de facto impossible to use them - they've struck down the data mention laws multiple times since 2007. The government keeps trying but to this day there's no law in force - struck down the law requiring a cross in every classroom

And these are just the bigger ones that made the press. There are a huge amount of cases that narrow down and define things like when apartments can be searched, when people can be wiretapped, what are the rights and responsilties of people living in a civil partnerships (before marriage for everyone was enacted), when and when not it's allowed to use the armed forces abroad and what restrictions on the right to assemble are allowed.

The reason you might have this impression are three-fold: - sometimes a law that is unconstitutional can be made constitutional by adding some exceptions. For example a surveillance law might only be unconstitutional because it didn't have adequate measures to protect priests, therapists, lawyers and other professions with certain privileges. The law is then often revised and passes muster. - some ruling a purely procedural. The decision itself is valid but either it didn't come to be in a valid way (e.g. proper parlimentary procedure wasn't maintained) or it exceeded authority (the government acted but it would have to be a law). These are often easily fixed by going through the process again or turning a decree into a law - Lastly, the constitution might just be changed. The Constitutional Court doesn't have any higher authority than the parliament. If the parliament, following proper procedure, changes the constitution a lot of things are possible. This does require a big majority in both parliaments. Note there are some basic principles that can't be changed but they're quite limited.

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#57

Post by ehnto »

alborzb wrote: post #43
chopin wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rulings of the constitutional court have almost no real life consequences. If there is a negative ruling the parliament is given ample time before the unconstitutional law must be replaced. If there is any replacement within that time, the same law, formulated differently, is passed.

so what you're saying is that the court... works?

I think they are saying that if no replacement for Law A is found, Law A just gets re-instated. No reform, making rulings impotent.

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#58

Post by jermier »

qayxc wrote: post #45
elchin wrote: post #4

"In reality, the German government has a double standard when it comes to the right to privacy. They will fully support that right if it's company's violating your privacy (especially, if they are American because protectionism) but in contrast, the German will give itself as many powers as it can to spy on its own citizens and those abroad." This.

Sure, relocate to Russia - you know, a country that doesn't even have free internet anymore and just like China pushes for totally state-controlled national network... Yeah, right. To point a finger at Germany while recommending Switzerland or Russia of all places as alternatives is just beyond retarded. So there have been a few (two, apparently) raids/seizing of documents in past 15 years, so what? Why no mention of…

> To point a finger at Germany while recommending Switzerland or Russia of all places as alternatives is just beyond retarded.

Reminds me of the old joke:

   Use Signal, over Tor, over Switzerland

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#59

Post by hintbits »

elchin wrote: post #4

"In reality, the German government has a double standard when it comes to the right to privacy. They will fully support that right if it's company's violating your privacy (especially, if they are American because protectionism) but in contrast, the German will give itself as many powers as it can to spy on its own citizens and those abroad." This.

Recently the German constitutional court ruled the government can't spy on foreigners outside Germany, as they enjoy constitutional protections: https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-cant-spy-on-foreig...

Of course, in a democratic country where the judicial system is separated from the legislative powers one should wait for the law (or the lawsuit) to know how it is enforced in reality.

Re: The German Problem with Tor

#60

Post by whatshisface »

hintbits wrote: post #59
elchin wrote: post #4

"In reality, the German government has a double standard when it comes to the right to privacy. They will fully support that right if it's company's violating your privacy (especially, if they are American because protectionism) but in contrast, the German will give itself as many powers as it can to spy on its own citizens and those abroad." This.

Recently the German constitutional court ruled the government can't spy on foreigners outside Germany, as they enjoy constitutional protections: https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-cant-spy-on-foreig... Of course, in a democratic country where the judicial system is separated from the legislative powers one should wait for the law (or the lawsuit) to know how it is enforced in reality.

>one should wait for the law (or the lawsuit) to know how it is enforced in reality.

Of course, as we discovered that the NSA was gamboling, if you're doing it in secret, and the secret that you're doing it is protected by law, then if you do something illegal, it won't be legal to take you to court...

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