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Why OKRs might not work at your company

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31–40 of 140 posts

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#31

One of our senior leadership people read the book, got in his mind that we need this at the company, got together the managers of all departments, they figured out some OKRs and now everyone’s off working on implementing them. Some of them are rather impossible, like teaching all devs on how to do devops within 2 months, so they can be self sufficient.

> teaching all devs on how to do devops within 2 months

Estimation based on initial guts should be quadrupled and rounded to the nearest quarter... so 9 months. This should provide a 90% percentile chance of success.

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#32
post #30

> The main idea is to give product teams real problems to solve, and then to give the teams the space to solve them. First, there's a dearth of high quality engineers in the industry. They've been gobbled up by SV companies with large paychecks and promises of "fuck-you money" paydays. Everyone else gets developers in the range from above average to bad. Product teams only work with high quality engineers across the…

You will enjoy your career much more if you quit it with this inverse Lake Woebegone philosophy.

The idea that all engineers outside of a few Silicon Valley companies are mediocre is laughable if you've ever worked at a FAANG. People pick all sorts of jobs for all sorts of reasons.

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#33
post #15

This is the key of the article: “ Those successful companies aren’t successful because they use OKR’s. They use OKR’s because it is designed to leverage the empowered product team model. And as I have tried to make clear with years of articles and talks, the empowered product team model is a fundamentally different approach to building and running a tech-product organization.” Amen to this. Google is an example compa…

Regardless of whether OKRs are meaningful or important (IMO they aren't), Google had OKRs in 1999, less than a year after founding, before AdWords. They didn't have notable product teams before OKRs.

Google seems terribly run, frankly. I wouldn't use them as an example of good process, organization, or really anything other than that being early to advertising and being the internet's front page for ~20 years is a great way to make money

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#34

One of our senior leadership people read the book, got in his mind that we need this at the company, got together the managers of all departments, they figured out some OKRs and now everyone’s off working on implementing them. Some of them are rather impossible, like teaching all devs on how to do devops within 2 months, so they can be self sufficient.

> teaching all devs on how to do devops within 2 months Estimation based on initial guts should be quadrupled and rounded to the nearest quarter... so 9 months. This should provide a 90% percentile chance of success.

At my company, management has repeatedly said OKRs should target failure. So like if you think you can get a major feature set done in 15 weeks they want you to target 10.

I’m not a fan of it myself. The idea feels like growth hacking, but over many quarters it doesn’t feel great to always be falling short of goals. I always assumed this is part of the OKR model, but maybe it’s just my company.

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#35
post #21

The summary is "your company may not yet be worthy of OKRs". This kind of has the whiff of other religious movements in tech like REST and Agile: if it's not working for you, you just aren't doing it right. Try harder and hope to one day be worthy.

I'm trying to grasp what's wrong with that. That statement is true for every set of system/values.

A set of systems won't work for 100% of the cases because that system was designed around a particular team. And there are times it won't work well.

Whether the system is good/effective has nothing to do with "you aren't doing it right" part.

The "you aren't doing it right" can be applied to literally everything.

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#36
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of whether OKRs are meaningful or important (IMO they aren't), Google had OKRs in 1999, less than a year after founding, before AdWords. They didn't have notable product teams before OKRs.

Google seems terribly run, frankly. I wouldn't use them as an example of good process, organization, or really anything other than that being early to advertising and being the internet's front page for ~20 years is a great way to make money

This. Google seems to not have anyone with a cohesive vision or even anyone that knows how to build a platform or maintain a product. I personally would like to know what's going on with the product owners at Google, because it really seems like none of them talk to each other.

Google is a fantastic engineering company, but terrible at building products.

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google seems terribly run, frankly. I wouldn't use them as an example of good process, organization, or really anything other than that being early to advertising and being the internet's front page for ~20 years is a great way to make money

This. Google seems to not have anyone with a cohesive vision or even anyone that knows how to build a platform or maintain a product. I personally would like to know what's going on with the product owners at Google, because it really seems like none of them talk to each other. Google is a fantastic engineering company, but terrible at building products.

I don't know that they're a fantastic engineering company. I don't know what Google is great at - a few things, which feel like they're successful almost because they're treated as separate from the rest of the organization.

OKRs are one of many parts of that, in my opinion.

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#38
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of whether OKRs are meaningful or important (IMO they aren't), Google had OKRs in 1999, less than a year after founding, before AdWords. They didn't have notable product teams before OKRs.

Google seems terribly run, frankly. I wouldn't use them as an example of good process, organization, or really anything other than that being early to advertising and being the internet's front page for ~20 years is a great way to make money

Why didn't the other companies that were those things succeed then? (Yahoo, Altavista, etc)?

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#39
We just started using them.

We're a small org that's mostly experienced consultants and contractors. They're energetic, proactive and independent people.

We've adopted OKRs to basically get everyone pulling in the same direction, but without being prescriptive about how the work gets done.

I'll report back at the end of the quarter on how it's working out, if anyone's interested :)

Re: Why OKRs might not work at your company

#40
OKRs?

Quote: "OKR’s are first and foremost an empowerment technique."

Don't empower anyone. Instead work on getting rid of / minimizing / improve on anything that dis-empowers. This is usually easier, cheaper and far more straightforward. Not always easy to get rid of disempowerment but you can at least put things in place to minimize it. Empowerment is barely measurable in real terms. All the metrics are indirect. Even turnover doesn't accurately measure it. Dis-empowerment on the other hand is a stinking mess. Follow your nose. Or your heart.

Quote: "Manager’s Objectives vs. Product Team Objectives"

One of these needs to be fired / removed / re-evaluated. If the manager is fighting the team then who's more in alignment with the overall vision? Why would you tolerate a manager that is fighting their team? Or vice versa? If the team members are across leaders and there's issues then there's some misalignment that needs to be fixed. Now. Iceberg! Change direction or sink!

Pointless drama and deliberate friction created in large organizations is why they squash innovation. Its why they do mindbogglingly stupid things. Its also why a manager or executive can benefit when a team fails, even their own. Incentives can be so screwed up that if a division fails, a number of people in the division cheer because their individual incentives are all green. This is too common.

Another quote: "The main idea is to give product teams real problems to solve"

You're doing WHAT?! How can you possibly tolerate non-real problems? Why would this be even necessary? That's like saying, "it gives them a way to generate profit". Really? That's a thing you're going to add?! As if its some new thing? What?!

Quote: "Passive manager"

What is this creature? How can you passively manage anything? Not even drunk people are passive. Only when they become unconscious do you start to have passivity. I've met managers who's teams zip along with the manager gone for a month. This isn't rare and its still not passive if adult supervision is in place. Why? Because an active manager puts processes in place to monitor and optimise what is going on. This is active management.

Quote: "Stop doing manager objectives and individual objectives"

Correct. Any mismatch means pointless friction. Why was this tolerated? Perhaps because drama at the bottom and middle keeps people too busy to notice the silliness at the top? Maybe. Regardless, it sounds expensive: How's that productivity going?

Quote: "Leaders need to step up"

Sure, and they should be allowed to lead. Which is often NOT the case. Plenty of managers leave team leaders in the dark about key aspects about what is going on and what is planned. Leading means choosing a direction. How can you know the direction to choose if you don't know the destination? This applies generally as well. Instead of expecting leaders to step up, why is there a step in the first place? Shouldn't there be a level playing field? Sort out organisational mess so its as level as possible - remember the bit about removing disempowerment? I wasn't kidding. Here's a symptom: the need to step up when no step should exist.

Ugh!

Go for enabling and self-directed team members that can tolerate and operate successfully with adult supervision. This kind of supervision requires managers, directors and team leaders as well.

One last thing: Get rid of deadlines and use due-dates instead. Not just wordplay. We need to be using project X on date Y. Make it happen and don't drop dead doing so. Change the mindset to fit this approach. Those deadline crunches? Not good. Dropping dead after a due-date means something went very wrong. Everything must be re-examined to avoid it in future. The mess has to be cleaned up. Supports put in place. Additional followups scheduled and kept. This works for projects as well as childbirth.

Ok. I feel decaffeinated and that is dis-empowering. Time for coffee. See? Fixable.

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