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The event that eventually led to Newton writing and publishing the Principia

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Re: The event that eventually led to Newton writing and publishing the Principia

#41

> In England around 1650 coffee houses became the favourite meeting places of the English scientific intelligentsia, the astronomers, mathematicians and natural philosophers. Here, these savants would meet up to exchange ideas, discuss the latest scientific theories and pose challenges to each other. Why don't we have coffee houses like this today? I'd go. You could argue that the web is the modern-day version of thi…

I've always wondered the same. Kinda like a HackerSpace. Are people more introverted now?

I'd love a place to drink good coffee or tea and talk about politics, philosophy, science, technology, literature...etc with strangers.

Re: The event that eventually led to Newton writing and publishing the Principia

#42

> In England around 1650 coffee houses became the favourite meeting places of the English scientific intelligentsia, the astronomers, mathematicians and natural philosophers. Here, these savants would meet up to exchange ideas, discuss the latest scientific theories and pose challenges to each other. Why don't we have coffee houses like this today? I'd go. You could argue that the web is the modern-day version of thi…

I think there underlying question is why can't we afford to hang out, and why can't a business afford to let people hang out on their premises?

The average person seems to have no large stretches of idle time. Neither did the people who built the pyramids, I guess. What are we doing?

Re: The event that eventually led to Newton writing and publishing the Principia

#43

> In England around 1650 coffee houses became the favourite meeting places of the English scientific intelligentsia, the astronomers, mathematicians and natural philosophers. Here, these savants would meet up to exchange ideas, discuss the latest scientific theories and pose challenges to each other. Why don't we have coffee houses like this today? I'd go. You could argue that the web is the modern-day version of thi…

I would say dang would have even more work to do, keeping up with the discussions around animal exhibits, autopsies, science experiments, all kinds of talks, painting lessons, something different every night, lots of random and interesting things, all in real time and between coffees.

(to what degree was the coffee shop the public-access commercially-supported more hands-on version of the salon?)

Re: The event that eventually led to Newton writing and publishing the Principia

#44

> In England around 1650 coffee houses became the favourite meeting places of the English scientific intelligentsia, the astronomers, mathematicians and natural philosophers. Here, these savants would meet up to exchange ideas, discuss the latest scientific theories and pose challenges to each other. Why don't we have coffee houses like this today? I'd go. You could argue that the web is the modern-day version of thi…

In Miami there is a bar called Churchill’s (Sometimes called the CBGBs of the South) in Little Haiti, not exactly the safest neighborhood in the world But that only adds to its charm.

On Monday nights for god knows how long they have had jazz nights on the inside and open mic nights on the outside. Not mathematical and scientific pursuits, but the greatest art I’ve ever had the pleasure of experiencing being created before my eyes And to me that makes it a place of intellectual pursuits (I’ve always called it the future of culture).

Just as an example I believe Marylin Manson had his official debut at churchill’s. I once watched a kid (wouldn’t be surprised if he was 17 and still in high school) walk up on stage in a dress with a harmonica and guitar...and I’d swear he’d give bob dylan a run for his money. And in all likelihood no one will even know this kids name or be moved/influenced by his music. One of the important things to take away from this article is the reality Newton was in his 40’s before he was “discovered“ living in near isolation as a unregarded professor and it was by happenstance Newton became Sir Newton (having already solved a problem his peer happened to be discussing and the challenge issued).

My insight would actually be these types of groups are everywhere, getting together and discussing and pursuing their passions with other likeminded people, it’s just unless you share the same passion or they are lucky enough to be discovered and transcend to be embraced by society at large they will simply be lost to history like Newton might have been.

Be the change you want to see in the world, I’d start maybe by going to a local university (covid may complicate this) and personally invite a number of professors from various fields to the campus bar for an open mic night. MC it but don’t put any restrictions, if they want to talk about work fine, if they want to read their own poetry fine, I think you’ll be surprised how quickly people in such an environment will share their unknown and undiscovered talents.

Re: The event that eventually led to Newton writing and publishing the Principia

#45

> In England around 1650 coffee houses became the favourite meeting places of the English scientific intelligentsia, the astronomers, mathematicians and natural philosophers. Here, these savants would meet up to exchange ideas, discuss the latest scientific theories and pose challenges to each other. Why don't we have coffee houses like this today? I'd go. You could argue that the web is the modern-day version of thi…

In Miami there is a bar called Churchill’s (Sometimes called the CBGBs of the South) in Little Haiti, not exactly the safest neighborhood in the world But that only adds to its charm. On Monday nights for god knows how long they have had jazz nights on the inside and open mic nights on the outside. Not mathematical and scientific pursuits, but the greatest art I’ve ever had the pleasure of experiencing being created…

I think this concept is wonderful. An open mic. night for research sounds delightful.

Re: The event that eventually led to Newton writing and publishing the Principia

#46

> In England around 1650 coffee houses became the favourite meeting places of the English scientific intelligentsia, the astronomers, mathematicians and natural philosophers. Here, these savants would meet up to exchange ideas, discuss the latest scientific theories and pose challenges to each other. Why don't we have coffee houses like this today? I'd go. You could argue that the web is the modern-day version of thi…

I think there underlying question is why can't we afford to hang out, and why can't a business afford to let people hang out on their premises? The average person seems to have no large stretches of idle time. Neither did the people who built the pyramids, I guess. What are we doing?

> The average person seems to have no large stretches of idle time.

If you killed the Internet after work, and did not have a TV, do you think you would suddenly have larger stretches of idle time?

Re: The event that eventually led to Newton writing and publishing the Principia

#47
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why don't we have coffee houses like this today? I'd go. You could argue that the web is the modern-day version of this No, I disagree. The web is not a replacement for normal social interaction. Zoom is not a replacement for in person meetings. The web does not replace an actual coffee shop, and social media or email does not replace a phone call. Unfortunately, our newest adult generation will never understand wh…

That's just nostalgia, electronic communication is in many ways better than face to face, even if it is worse in others. Electronic communication allows you to communicate with the specialist in your field, located in the other side of the world. It is constantly available thanks to smartphones. If you have a great idea, you can share it immediately, if your phone is waterproof, you don't even need to leave your show…

A lot of what you list are anti-features:

> Electronic communication allows you to communicate with the specialist in your field

Which makes it less likely you will communicate with someone closer to your level. The specialist will be inundated, whereas perfectly fruitful conversations with merely competent/slightly expert people will not happen. You are a lot more likely to know the famous experts than you are to know very good people in the field who are right in your (or any) backyard. A dense network of communications will likely generate better ideas than those centered around very few specialists.

> It is constantly available thanks to smartphones.

Time sink spent on sites like the Math stackexchange, etc at all possible hours. With a coffee house, you have a dedicated time, and you cannot utilize it outside of those few hours. This frees up your mind to ponder and create. With "constantly available", you can spend all your time on it.

> If you have a great idea, you can share it immediately,

This is a huge problem for two reasons: 1. It leads to way too many false positives. I reckon most such ideas are flawed, and you would have discovered the flaws if you had waited a few hours/days to share it. 2. Spending the time to curate your idea, formulate it well, etc is much more effective than simply messaging out your half baked idea (even if the idea is a good one).

> You can ask question and get answer within seconds when you are working on your subject.

This is the same anti-feature and is why when I worked in teams where we were colocated, I would keep my IM off at work (sometimes for months at a time). If people wanted to talk to me, they could email me if it's not urgent otherwise they would have to walk to my cube and interrupt me (I don't mind these interruptions). This worked well for 2 reasons: 1. They are much more conscious of interrupting me, so they will think more before deciding to interrupt me. 2: Just that extra physical motion of getting up and walking would be enough for their brains to figure out the solution on the way to my cube.

You could very well argue that some people have the discipline and skills to manage all the problems above. In my experience, they are in a minority, and a smaller proportion of the population can/will manage them compared to the old days.

> But they are now able to take advantage of both electronic and face-to-face communication with a level of expertise older generations don't have, and better manage potential distractions.

Very much disagree on "better manage potential distractions." We have an order of magnitude more distractions, and looking around I see that most people are doing a very poor job of managing them.

Re: The event that eventually led to Newton writing and publishing the Principia

#48

> In England around 1650 coffee houses became the favourite meeting places of the English scientific intelligentsia, the astronomers, mathematicians and natural philosophers. Here, these savants would meet up to exchange ideas, discuss the latest scientific theories and pose challenges to each other. Why don't we have coffee houses like this today? I'd go. You could argue that the web is the modern-day version of thi…

In Miami there is a bar called Churchill’s (Sometimes called the CBGBs of the South) in Little Haiti, not exactly the safest neighborhood in the world But that only adds to its charm. On Monday nights for god knows how long they have had jazz nights on the inside and open mic nights on the outside. Not mathematical and scientific pursuits, but the greatest art I’ve ever had the pleasure of experiencing being created…

When I read "In Miami there is...", I was half expecting to read about your experience at the Lab (https://www.thelabmiami.com/) which shares space with Arts for Learning http://www.a4lmiami.org/ and Miami Light Project https://miamilightproject.com/. Open mics twice a month. Not to mention once-a-month Nerd Night at Gramps around the corner. I had almost forgotten about Churchill's when I started hanging out in Wynwood more.

Over the years, I have bumped into fellow Hacker Newers in all of these places.

I didn't realize how spoiled we must be here in Miami (but not at the moment). Thanks for the reminder, throwaway!

Re: The event that eventually led to Newton writing and publishing the Principia

#49

> In England around 1650 coffee houses became the favourite meeting places of the English scientific intelligentsia, the astronomers, mathematicians and natural philosophers. Here, these savants would meet up to exchange ideas, discuss the latest scientific theories and pose challenges to each other. Why don't we have coffee houses like this today? I'd go. You could argue that the web is the modern-day version of thi…

> Why don't we have coffee houses like this [the favourite meeting places of the English scientific intelligentsia, the astronomers, mathematicians and natural philosophers] today?

I can tell you where the scientists are. They are sitting in their offices writing the next grant application. And if they aren't, going to hang out at the coffee shop with other scientists is not a line item on their CV that contributes towards their tenure application.

Re: The event that eventually led to Newton writing and publishing the Principia

#50
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there underlying question is why can't we afford to hang out, and why can't a business afford to let people hang out on their premises? The average person seems to have no large stretches of idle time. Neither did the people who built the pyramids, I guess. What are we doing?

> The average person seems to have no large stretches of idle time. If you killed the Internet after work, and did not have a TV, do you think you would suddenly have larger stretches of idle time?

No, by idle I meant idle, not what's left over after you've already put in a day's work.
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