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The Keynesian Revolution: A new biography of John Maynard Keynes

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Re: The Keynesian Revolution: A new biography of John Maynard Keynes

#11

Post by 082349872349872 »

yyyk wrote: post #6

The treatment of Keynes' post-WWI comments is an apologia that misses the deeper point. Keynes was not merely wrong about the German ability to pay, he misread the strategic situation. The French position was not merely motivated by vengeance. The Post-WWI situation was simple in a way yet strage. Germany was defeated, yet it remained the strongest country in continental Europe. Britain and France were bled dry, Russ…

A hypothesis which I ran across but haven't yet had the time and inclination to back-of-the-envelope: had germany sought to peacefully outcompete the british empire, they might well have succeeded by mid-century, instead of suffering all the ill effects of 1914-1990 ("the short twentieth century").

Re: The Keynesian Revolution: A new biography of John Maynard Keynes

#12

Post by injb »

QuesnayJr wrote: post #4
baybal2 wrote: post #2

I think Keynes was misunderstood massively like Karl Marx. Marx said "I am not a Marxist" when he saw his ideas being put into a something bordering a religious teaching. And later, I think, Keynes was rather unsettled with how his works been used to legitimise a new maxim "government can print money out of thin air," from an inverse of what dominated US economic thinking before him. It was not his idea at all. Beyon…

It is literally true that the government can print money out of thin air. This is a genuine fact about the world today, so I don't see how Keynes would draw a different conclusion. Keynes did say If the Treasury were to fill old bottles with banknotes, bury them at suitable depths in disused coalmines which are then filled up to the surface with town rubbish, and leave it to private enterprise on well-tried principle…

I've never understood this. If everyone is doing unproductive "busy work" (digging up money) instead of making useful goods and services, then how could the money be worth anything?

Re: The Keynesian Revolution: A new biography of John Maynard Keynes

#13

Post by claudeganon »

injb wrote: post #12
QuesnayJr wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is literally true that the government can print money out of thin air. This is a genuine fact about the world today, so I don't see how Keynes would draw a different conclusion. Keynes did say If the Treasury were to fill old bottles with banknotes, bury them at suitable depths in disused coalmines which are then filled up to the surface with town rubbish, and leave it to private enterprise on well-tried principle…

I've never understood this. If everyone is doing unproductive "busy work" (digging up money) instead of making useful goods and services, then how could the money be worth anything?

It’s not everyone. It’s those whom the economy had rendered unnecessary for its continued growth and functioning.

Keynes’ argument is that it would be better for the economy, in aggregate, to put these people to some end using government spending, ideally a productive one (his example, building homes for people) then remove them from the loop.

Re: The Keynesian Revolution: A new biography of John Maynard Keynes

#14

Post by CyberDildonics »

pessimizer wrote: post #8
baybal2 wrote: post #2

I think Keynes was misunderstood massively like Karl Marx. Marx said "I am not a Marxist" when he saw his ideas being put into a something bordering a religious teaching. And later, I think, Keynes was rather unsettled with how his works been used to legitimise a new maxim "government can print money out of thin air," from an inverse of what dominated US economic thinking before him. It was not his idea at all. Beyon…

Keynes explicitly wouldn't have been concerned about government debt, which is just the government's portion of the national debt. The other part of the national debt is held by the population of the country, and there is an identity that if you increase one, you lower the other. Where you decide to balance that is arbitrary, although debt held by individuals makes them individually subject to the demands of the peop…

In the 70s the US went off of the gold standard after Charles Degaulle started to repatriate his gold back to France, thinking the US did not have the gold reserves to back all their obligations. It was not clear at the time if truly floating the dollar would work at all and severe inflation was a huge systemic risk.

In general this is not what I would consider a refusal to print money:

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M1REAL

Re: The Keynesian Revolution: A new biography of John Maynard Keynes

#15

Post by chrispeel »

yyyk wrote: post #6

The treatment of Keynes' post-WWI comments is an apologia that misses the deeper point. Keynes was not merely wrong about the German ability to pay, he misread the strategic situation. The French position was not merely motivated by vengeance. The Post-WWI situation was simple in a way yet strage. Germany was defeated, yet it remained the strongest country in continental Europe. Britain and France were bled dry, Russ…

> Keynes was not merely wrong about the German ability to pay

So the Germans were able to pay? I don't pretend to be a historian, yet I've never heard the idea that Germany could pay.

BTW, the Odd Lots had a show [1] about the book recently

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/audio/2020-07-12/studying-key...

Re: The Keynesian Revolution: A new biography of John Maynard Keynes

#16

Post by [deleted] »

injb wrote: post #12
QuesnayJr wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is literally true that the government can print money out of thin air. This is a genuine fact about the world today, so I don't see how Keynes would draw a different conclusion. Keynes did say If the Treasury were to fill old bottles with banknotes, bury them at suitable depths in disused coalmines which are then filled up to the surface with town rubbish, and leave it to private enterprise on well-tried principle…

I've never understood this. If everyone is doing unproductive "busy work" (digging up money) instead of making useful goods and services, then how could the money be worth anything?

[deleted]

Re: The Keynesian Revolution: A new biography of John Maynard Keynes

#17

Post by QuesnayJr »

chrispeel wrote: post #15
yyyk wrote: post #6

The treatment of Keynes' post-WWI comments is an apologia that misses the deeper point. Keynes was not merely wrong about the German ability to pay, he misread the strategic situation. The French position was not merely motivated by vengeance. The Post-WWI situation was simple in a way yet strage. Germany was defeated, yet it remained the strongest country in continental Europe. Britain and France were bled dry, Russ…

> Keynes was not merely wrong about the German ability to pay So the Germans were able to pay? I don't pretend to be a historian, yet I've never heard the idea that Germany could pay. BTW, the Odd Lots had a show [1] about the book recently [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/audio/2020-07-12/studying-key...

Keynes' contention about the German ability to pay was and remains controversial: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economic_Consequences_of_t...

Re: The Keynesian Revolution: A new biography of John Maynard Keynes

#18

Post by dgut »

baybal2 wrote: post #2

I think Keynes was misunderstood massively like Karl Marx. Marx said "I am not a Marxist" when he saw his ideas being put into a something bordering a religious teaching. And later, I think, Keynes was rather unsettled with how his works been used to legitimise a new maxim "government can print money out of thin air," from an inverse of what dominated US economic thinking before him. It was not his idea at all. Beyon…

Mark supposedly said, according to Engels: "if they are Marxists, then I am not a Marxist", referring to the French socialist movement and his son-in-law, which he thought of as not radical enough, not as a rebuttal of his ideas or because "he saw his ideas being put into a something bordering a religious teaching". Be accurate.

Re: The Keynesian Revolution: A new biography of John Maynard Keynes

#19

Post by nickik »

082349872349872 wrote: post #11
yyyk wrote: post #6

The treatment of Keynes' post-WWI comments is an apologia that misses the deeper point. Keynes was not merely wrong about the German ability to pay, he misread the strategic situation. The French position was not merely motivated by vengeance. The Post-WWI situation was simple in a way yet strage. Germany was defeated, yet it remained the strongest country in continental Europe. Britain and France were bled dry, Russ…

A hypothesis which I ran across but haven't yet had the time and inclination to back-of-the-envelope: had germany sought to peacefully outcompete the british empire, they might well have succeeded by mid-century, instead of suffering all the ill effects of 1914-1990 ("the short twentieth century").

In capitalism there isn't really isn't a need for a 'winner', its not zero sum. Britain and Germany would have been both 100x better of to not fight any idiotic wars over strategically worthless land in the Balkans.

Many people from both sides realized this but the German leadership sadly was of a more conservative mindset.

Re: The Keynesian Revolution: A new biography of John Maynard Keynes

#20

Post by nickik »

yyyk wrote: post #6

The treatment of Keynes' post-WWI comments is an apologia that misses the deeper point. Keynes was not merely wrong about the German ability to pay, he misread the strategic situation. The French position was not merely motivated by vengeance. The Post-WWI situation was simple in a way yet strage. Germany was defeated, yet it remained the strongest country in continental Europe. Britain and France were bled dry, Russ…

I totally agree, Keynes was just one of many who made huge mistakes in the inter war years and in the WW1 resolution.

> a defence alliance to prevent Germany from making trouble. Which was something that was probably politically impossible in the US, and I don't recall Keynes advocating for it.

It was actually not impossible. If you don't take the standard US history crap about how 'isolationist' are the worst thing and responsible for all bad things, its actually pretty clear that they could have gotten the WW1 resolution threw congress.

Yes there were some isolationists but that's not why all the treaties failed in the US congress.

This talk is very good on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTBI86s0oSQ

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