Amazon soya and beef exports 'linked to deforestation' • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon soya and beef exports 'linked to deforestation'

#11

Post by logicchains » Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 11:09 AM UTC

afandian wrote: post #4

Here's an interesting thought experiment for meat-eaters: Why not stop eating beef? your response might be a knee-jerk "but I really like it!". Everyone knows the huge environmental costs we are responsible for when eating meat. But it's really interesting to pursue the tension in your own personal logic-brain vs lizard want-it-brain. I've stopped eating most refined sugar and massively cut down on meat in the past f…

Different people have different time preferences (preference for futures vs current satisfaction). Evidently most people don't even care what their diet does to their own health in fifty years time (given the massive rise in diet-related preventable illnesses), so I don't imagine they'd care about much about the environmental effects either. And there's nothing wrong with that; there's no "objectively correct" time preference, no objective way to say "X units of satisfaction thirty years from now is worth Y units of satisfaction today".

Re: Amazon soya and beef exports 'linked to deforestation'

#12

Post by biddlesby » Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 11:10 AM UTC

UweSchmidt wrote: post #10

afandian wrote: post #4

Here's an interesting thought experiment for meat-eaters: Why not stop eating beef? your response might be a knee-jerk "but I really like it!". Everyone knows the huge environmental costs we are responsible for when eating meat. But it's really interesting to pursue the tension in your own personal logic-brain vs lizard want-it-brain. I've stopped eating most refined sugar and massively cut down on meat in the past f…

The problem is the availability of vegetarian / vegan meals in western society. Sophisticated food culture revolves around meat. It requires planning and work (in addition to dealing with the lizard brain). In particular, as a gym-goer I want my protein, and if soya is out too, then it's quite a bit more difficult. Excuses, I know.

I wouldn't say soya is out. It's about relative impacts: soya has a vastly lower environmental impact than meat.

Re: Amazon soya and beef exports 'linked to deforestation'

#13

Post by biddlesby » Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 11:14 AM UTC

logicchains wrote: post #11

afandian wrote: post #4

Here's an interesting thought experiment for meat-eaters: Why not stop eating beef? your response might be a knee-jerk "but I really like it!". Everyone knows the huge environmental costs we are responsible for when eating meat. But it's really interesting to pursue the tension in your own personal logic-brain vs lizard want-it-brain. I've stopped eating most refined sugar and massively cut down on meat in the past f…

Different people have different time preferences (preference for futures vs current satisfaction). Evidently most people don't even care what their diet does to their own health in fifty years time (given the massive rise in diet-related preventable illnesses), so I don't imagine they'd care about much about the environmental effects either. And there's nothing wrong with that; there's no "objectively correct" time p…

Just because there's no objectively correct measure, I wouldn't say that means it isn't wrong. There's nothing objective in ethics.

In your example of people not caring about their health: the environmental impact of diet is in a different ethical class for me. If you choose to ignore your own health that's your deal, but if you make choices that negatively impact the lives of millions I think the ethics are different.

Re: Amazon soya and beef exports 'linked to deforestation'

#14

Post by codegladiator » Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 11:14 AM UTC

maallooc wrote: post #9

afandian wrote: post #4

Here's an interesting thought experiment for meat-eaters: Why not stop eating beef? your response might be a knee-jerk "but I really like it!". Everyone knows the huge environmental costs we are responsible for when eating meat. But it's really interesting to pursue the tension in your own personal logic-brain vs lizard want-it-brain. I've stopped eating most refined sugar and massively cut down on meat in the past f…

Because I don't care about the environmental cost beacuse people like you who don't eat meat will cover for my cost, god bless. Also tbqh I'd prefer some trees chopped off than to quit eating steaks.

I see this down voted, and frankly not surprised, this is a really unpopular opinion somehow, but this is not wrong. As a community we do see the duty of protecting environment imposed on us, but as an individual I don't think many people see it as that.

I don't know how to put it in words exactly, but "future is doomed" is somehow "everyone knows" one way or another (at least I am going to die before doom happens and a single individual cannot be held responsible for the doom anyways).

And then we also have the factories polluting the environment where we can debate on how useful the end product is, but when it comes down to a person eating meat the discussion just never would convince meat eaters in my opinion. Meat eaters could say "who's ultimately benefiting from the factories polluting environment" and the answer would more or less be some corporation. Why should they have all the fun ?

Re: Amazon soya and beef exports 'linked to deforestation'

#15

Post by biddlesby » Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 11:17 AM UTC

codegladiator wrote: post #14

maallooc wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I don't care about the environmental cost beacuse people like you who don't eat meat will cover for my cost, god bless. Also tbqh I'd prefer some trees chopped off than to quit eating steaks.

I see this down voted, and frankly not surprised, this is a really unpopular opinion somehow, but this is not wrong. As a community we do see the duty of protecting environment imposed on us, but as an individual I don't think many people see it as that. I don't know how to put it in words exactly, but "future is doomed" is somehow "everyone knows" one way or another (at least I am going to die before doom happens an…

I'm inclined to agree. Framing environmentalism as a problem that individuals need to solve isn't going to get us anywhere. It's a problem with the rules of the game, it requires political willpower.

Re: Amazon soya and beef exports 'linked to deforestation'

#16

Post by afandian » Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 11:20 AM UTC

maallooc wrote: post #9

afandian wrote: post #4

Here's an interesting thought experiment for meat-eaters: Why not stop eating beef? your response might be a knee-jerk "but I really like it!". Everyone knows the huge environmental costs we are responsible for when eating meat. But it's really interesting to pursue the tension in your own personal logic-brain vs lizard want-it-brain. I've stopped eating most refined sugar and massively cut down on meat in the past f…

Because I don't care about the environmental cost beacuse people like you who don't eat meat will cover for my cost, god bless. Also tbqh I'd prefer some trees chopped off than to quit eating steaks.

This is exactly what I mean. The immediate response is often one of dismissal, and it takes quite a lot of effort to move beyond it.

Re: Amazon soya and beef exports 'linked to deforestation'

#17

Post by maallooc » Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 11:22 AM UTC

afandian wrote: post #16

maallooc wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I don't care about the environmental cost beacuse people like you who don't eat meat will cover for my cost, god bless. Also tbqh I'd prefer some trees chopped off than to quit eating steaks.

This is exactly what I mean. The immediate response is often one of dismissal, and it takes quite a lot of effort to move beyond it.

Why move beyond? I've just had 350g of juicy flat iron steak, produced 7 kilos of co2 and happy about it.

Don't try to boss people around because I'm not buying. Thanks to people like you, I can finally enjoy beef without guilt. Keep up the good work.

Re: Amazon soya and beef exports 'linked to deforestation'

#18

Post by econcon » Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 11:22 AM UTC

maallooc wrote: post #9

afandian wrote: post #4

Here's an interesting thought experiment for meat-eaters: Why not stop eating beef? your response might be a knee-jerk "but I really like it!". Everyone knows the huge environmental costs we are responsible for when eating meat. But it's really interesting to pursue the tension in your own personal logic-brain vs lizard want-it-brain. I've stopped eating most refined sugar and massively cut down on meat in the past f…

Because I don't care about the environmental cost beacuse people like you who don't eat meat will cover for my cost, god bless. Also tbqh I'd prefer some trees chopped off than to quit eating steaks.

Why is this being downvoted. It's true, I don't think non vegetarian pay higher health insurance premiums, so society as a whole will foot the bill of both health and environmental impact.

Re: Amazon soya and beef exports 'linked to deforestation'

#19

Post by mytailorisrich » Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 11:24 AM UTC

UweSchmidt wrote: post #10

afandian wrote: post #4

Here's an interesting thought experiment for meat-eaters: Why not stop eating beef? your response might be a knee-jerk "but I really like it!". Everyone knows the huge environmental costs we are responsible for when eating meat. But it's really interesting to pursue the tension in your own personal logic-brain vs lizard want-it-brain. I've stopped eating most refined sugar and massively cut down on meat in the past f…

The problem is the availability of vegetarian / vegan meals in western society. Sophisticated food culture revolves around meat. It requires planning and work (in addition to dealing with the lizard brain). In particular, as a gym-goer I want my protein, and if soya is out too, then it's quite a bit more difficult. Excuses, I know.

"Western society" (which is diverse and fragmented) started to eat a lot of meat when it became wealthy. There are plenty of low/no meat dishes in Western culture. The often cited Southern European/Mediterranean diet does not include that much meat.

Cereals (expecially in the form of bread and pasta) and vegetables used to be staples that accounted for most of our food intake.

While we probably eat too much meat in general, going vegetarian/vegan is going from an extreme to the other. I'm sure most 'normal' people can cut their meat consumption by half without noticing it too much.

Globally the issue is that people are starting to be wealthy enough and we are probably too many.

Also, relying on ready-meals in general is not a good idea for both health and environment.

Re: Amazon soya and beef exports 'linked to deforestation'

#20

Post by bttrfl » Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 11:25 AM UTC

logicchains wrote: post #11

afandian wrote: post #4

Here's an interesting thought experiment for meat-eaters: Why not stop eating beef? your response might be a knee-jerk "but I really like it!". Everyone knows the huge environmental costs we are responsible for when eating meat. But it's really interesting to pursue the tension in your own personal logic-brain vs lizard want-it-brain. I've stopped eating most refined sugar and massively cut down on meat in the past f…

Different people have different time preferences (preference for futures vs current satisfaction). Evidently most people don't even care what their diet does to their own health in fifty years time (given the massive rise in diet-related preventable illnesses), so I don't imagine they'd care about much about the environmental effects either. And there's nothing wrong with that; there's no "objectively correct" time p…

I don't care that much for my own health, but I do care about my ecological footprint. Not because of X units of satisfaction I'll take from glaciers thirty years from now, but because I don't treat the world as my property. We're guests here and should behave accordingly.