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The evidence which suggests that Covid-19 is not a naturally evolved virus [pdf]

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Re: The evidence which suggests that Covid-19 is not a naturally evolved virus [pdf]

#251

Post by ezVoodoo »

jkhdigital wrote: post #127

Here's the Cliff Notes version of the argument in this paper: 1. SARS-CoV-2 has a number of unique and unusual genetic features, when compared to close relatives, many of which explain its high virulence and infectivity among humans. 2. A series of research papers published by a group of virologists, dating back a little over a decade, demonstrate (1) a progressively increasing understanding of viral features which m…

It is a false claim that the Covid-19 outbreak started from Wuhan. Scientists from Spain, Italy and Brazil have independently reported the detection of the coronavirus in their city waste water samples dating back to early 2019.

China was the first country to detect the existence of the coronavirus, but it does not mean the virus started in China. If a country announces the finding of a new virus, it makes that country a whistle-blower for the mankind, not the scapegoat.

Re: The evidence which suggests that Covid-19 is not a naturally evolved virus [pdf]

#252

Post by hirenj »

Of the five salient points they make here, I would argue that they are a lot less strong than the authors believe them to be.

Point 1 can also likely be made for the original Sars-CoV, and probably is irrelevant. If they show CoV-2 is more human like than the earlier, then they can begin to make the point.

Point 2 is a gigantic leap of faith - I don’t understand how they connect amino acid inserts into the sequence to gain of function experiments. It makes no sense!

Points 3 & 4 are related: The extra charge on the RBD. If you look at the previous virus, it has a much smaller positively charged patch, and this expands in CoV-2, which makes an evolutionary drift in this direction entirely reasonable. It’s not a wholesale integration of a brand new feature. This charged patch is actually important for binding to heparan sulfate, which gets involved with a bunch of viral entry events (eg AAV, Chinkunguya virus, some other coronaviruses I think). There’s a few recent preprints that discuss the HS relationship with Cov-2, and can go a long way to explain the tropism of the virus. The HS can overcome lower expression of ACE2, by possibly supporting the attachment.

Finally, point 5 is where they throw out DC-SIGN as a receptor. While there are high mannose glycans on the virus particle, I don’t know of anyone proposing this as a receptor for the virus. There is no biochemical/experimental evidence that they show to support this idea.

Re: The evidence which suggests that Covid-19 is not a naturally evolved virus [pdf]

#253

Post by kingkawn »

dahfizz wrote: post #160
mjirv wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is worth clarifying that she was not responding to this paper specifically, just to general arguments of the type “this must be man made because it has so many features that make it well-suited to spread in humans.” The fact that researchers in Wuhan were studying (some of?) these features is stronger evidence when combined with the location. However, it also seems reasonable that features of viruses researchers s…

> However, it also seems reasonable that features of viruses researchers study because of their likelihood to increase human transmission would show up in a naturally occurring virus with a lot of human transmission. You are letting language get in the way here. Researchers at Wuhan weren't studying "features" of viruses, they were studying what happens exactly when you insert X amino acid at Y location and how that…

Yes, probability at work in nature is capable of such a thing, as improbable as we may find it.

Also there are probably trillions upon trillions of copies of the virus by now, one in a billion isnt hard to imagine.

Re: The evidence which suggests that Covid-19 is not a naturally evolved virus [pdf]

#254

Post by arrayjumper »

ezVoodoo wrote: post #251
jkhdigital wrote: post #127

Here's the Cliff Notes version of the argument in this paper: 1. SARS-CoV-2 has a number of unique and unusual genetic features, when compared to close relatives, many of which explain its high virulence and infectivity among humans. 2. A series of research papers published by a group of virologists, dating back a little over a decade, demonstrate (1) a progressively increasing understanding of viral features which m…

It is a false claim that the Covid-19 outbreak started from Wuhan. Scientists from Spain, Italy and Brazil have independently reported the detection of the coronavirus in their city waste water samples dating back to early 2019. China was the first country to detect the existence of the coronavirus, but it does not mean the virus started in China. If a country announces the finding of a new virus, it makes that count…

Could you link some sources for that claim?

Re: The evidence which suggests that Covid-19 is not a naturally evolved virus [pdf]

#255

Post by sudosysgen »

salawat wrote: post #212
dolmen wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Luc Montagnier has long lost any credibility in his home country, France.

Fritz Haber wasn't exactly super popular well... anywhere for contributions to WWI or WWII. Doesn't mean he was any less credible as chemist.

Luc Montagnier lost credibility due to making incorrect claims and general quackery. Not comparable to Haber.

He has made claims supporting homeopathy, and claimed to have evidence of DNA teleportation. That's reason enough to lose credibility.

Re: The evidence which suggests that Covid-19 is not a naturally evolved virus [pdf]

#256

Post by topher200 »

anikan_vader wrote: post #198

It is interesting to think about the origins of Covid-19 with Bayesian statistics in mind. We believe that the virus originated in Wuhan, and the two competing "mainstream" theories are whether the virus came from a wet market or a bio lab. I don't know exactly how many wet markets exist in China, but I would guess that there are thousands spread across China. A wet market is simply a place where fresh produce/meat i…

Interesting thought process.

One minor correction: there's two BSL-4 labs in China. The other is in Harbin, Heilongjiang.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosafety_level#List_of_BSL-4_...

Re: The evidence which suggests that Covid-19 is not a naturally evolved virus [pdf]

#257

Post by [deleted] »

arrayjumper wrote: post #254
ezVoodoo wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a false claim that the Covid-19 outbreak started from Wuhan. Scientists from Spain, Italy and Brazil have independently reported the detection of the coronavirus in their city waste water samples dating back to early 2019. China was the first country to detect the existence of the coronavirus, but it does not mean the virus started in China. If a country announces the finding of a new virus, it makes that count…

Could you link some sources for that claim?

[deleted]

Re: The evidence which suggests that Covid-19 is not a naturally evolved virus [pdf]

#258

Post by gfaure »

ezVoodoo wrote: post #251
jkhdigital wrote: post #127

Here's the Cliff Notes version of the argument in this paper: 1. SARS-CoV-2 has a number of unique and unusual genetic features, when compared to close relatives, many of which explain its high virulence and infectivity among humans. 2. A series of research papers published by a group of virologists, dating back a little over a decade, demonstrate (1) a progressively increasing understanding of viral features which m…

It is a false claim that the Covid-19 outbreak started from Wuhan. Scientists from Spain, Italy and Brazil have independently reported the detection of the coronavirus in their city waste water samples dating back to early 2019. China was the first country to detect the existence of the coronavirus, but it does not mean the virus started in China. If a country announces the finding of a new virus, it makes that count…

The fact that the virus was detected in wastewater samples in Italy earlier doesn't by itself rule out an origin from the Wuhan Institute of Virology, or from China.

Re: The evidence which suggests that Covid-19 is not a naturally evolved virus [pdf]

#259

Post by ezVoodoo »

arrayjumper wrote: post #254
ezVoodoo wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a false claim that the Covid-19 outbreak started from Wuhan. Scientists from Spain, Italy and Brazil have independently reported the detection of the coronavirus in their city waste water samples dating back to early 2019. China was the first country to detect the existence of the coronavirus, but it does not mean the virus started in China. If a country announces the finding of a new virus, it makes that count…

Could you link some sources for that claim?

Brazil https://www.scmp.com/news/world/americas/article/3091757/ear...

Spain https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-spain-...

Italy https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53106444

Re: The evidence which suggests that Covid-19 is not a naturally evolved virus [pdf]

#260

Post by sudosysgen »

anikan_vader wrote: post #198

It is interesting to think about the origins of Covid-19 with Bayesian statistics in mind. We believe that the virus originated in Wuhan, and the two competing "mainstream" theories are whether the virus came from a wet market or a bio lab. I don't know exactly how many wet markets exist in China, but I would guess that there are thousands spread across China. A wet market is simply a place where fresh produce/meat i…

The issue is that the lab was placed in Wuhan to begin with because it was likely a coronavirus could spillover. That throws a wrench into that kind of analysis.
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