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The evidence which suggests that Covid-19 is not a naturally evolved virus [pdf]

minervanett.no

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Re: The evidence which suggests that Covid-19 is not a naturally evolved virus [pdf]

#191
post #110

> A Norwegian virologist has made claims about the non-natural origins of the new coronavirus. These claims were, reportedly, in an earlier draft of the paper, and Dr Sørensen has since repeated them to Norwegian press. > The final version of the research paper, which has undergone peer review and been accepted for publication in the Quarterly Review of Biophysics Discovery, doesn’t actually make any claims about whe…

> The scientific community widely agrees that the virus was not artificially engineered. Artificially engineered isn't really the question; the questions are 'is this a lab escape?' and 'if this is a lab escape, did the virus work so well on mammals pre-experiment?'. The scientists have a massive incentive not to believe that the virus is a lab escape until the evidence is overwhelming. This is a global disaster, if…

Thank you. Finally someone else has realized that the scientific community may, in fact, be composed of human beings, an animal that comes baked in with an aversion to making their own life more difficult or jeopardizing the attitude of those around them to their work!

You can't look at the set of circumstances that lead up to this, factor in that a lab escape is likely, and make an honest attempt at projecting what additional controls may be rolled out on the field of virological research, and come away from that blind to the fundamental conflict of interest this may generate in people in the field.

Hell, I know researchers who can't even imagine why anyone would do the kind of work described in these documents in the first place, yet nevertheless we have the papers to show they did. We know the equipment and techniques to do the deed exist. That they were all in the same geographical and temporal location. If you don't suspect spooky action at a distance, or endorse magical thinking, you have to come to 2 very uncomfortable conclusions.

The first: technical know-how, tools, and people to wield them existed within the same space, at the same time. The outbreak started in close proximity to this potential causal nexus. This was paired with seemingly anomalous behavior in the initial response to said outbreak, and. It is politically intractable to get a good first person inspection of what was going on at the early stages of the pandemic response due to official acts of censure and destruction of evidence.

The second: Everyone who you'd defer to decide whether or not it's reasonable is also liable to place a variety of unpleasantly enhanced controls on their field as a consequence of giving an affirmative answer.

It'd be like asking the fox whether the lack of security measures on the coop may have had something to with the sudden sharp decline in the population of living chickens. We already know what that answer will look like.

We all look at each other and assume the best of intentions, but even history tells us the best of intentions have a way of finding their ways to very unpleasant outcomes in the presence of enough cogs without the full picture of what is going on, and those with enough of a picture to know what is going on are infrequently in that position due to a willingness to cut their own throats by admitting why they are really doing what they are. That's just the Machiavellian or politically inclined ones.

You've got Oppenheimer's and Teller's who did research just for the fundamental beauty they saw in the math, and understanding, and power conferred by the knowledge gained from their work.

I can't be so crazy as to be the only one to see the ridiculousness in taking the very people with the most lose as being perfectly impartial. I can't be the only candid or meta-cognitive enough to realize that at some level there needs to be a degree of salt taken to any assertion that a lab couldn't have been involved and we should all just stop even considering it.

Re: The evidence which suggests that Covid-19 is not a naturally evolved virus [pdf]

#192
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good summary, thanks! Related to the origin hypotheses, the hypothesis of zoonotic outbreak from a wet market in mid-Dec no longer seems as relevant. It was first laid out in a widely disseminated paper in The Lancet [1, see Figure 1B], but since then retrospective wastewater analyses from Italy[2], Spain[3], Brazil and others[4] have found it was circulating much earlier. "The Italian National Institute of Health lo…

> Related to the origin hypotheses, the hypothesis of zoonotic outbreak from a wet market in mid-Dec no longer seems as relevant Perhaps in your mind, but this is not at all a fair representation of the general scientific consensus - most still hold the weight of the evidence leans towards a November '19 origin in Wuhan

He cited papers, you referenced a "general scientific consensus". This is a gun fight, sir, so you'd best put that knife away.

Re: The evidence which suggests that Covid-19 is not a naturally evolved virus [pdf]

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But conditional on being in a pandemic the chance that the virus that arises to cause it is like SARS-CoV-2 is super high!! This statement is a distraction from the main question. The question is: conditional on being in a SARS-CoV-2 pandemic, what is the probability that the virus arose through purely natural processes, vs. the probability that it escaped from a lab. I am not equipped to assess the biological evid…

There is something about this way of reasoning that seems faulty to me.The reason the Wuhan laboratory was studying coronaviruses in the first place is that there is a large reservoir of the virus in the area. In other terms: diamonds are hard to find, but where you find diamond mines you also find diamonds, ergo: diamond mines must create diamonds.

This is why I prefer thinking about the goal of this discussion as estimating probabilities, rather than as coming up with a logical argument that has a definite conclusion. I agree that the presence of a large virus reservoir in the area shifts the probability in favor of a natural process. I don't think it is enough to make the probability of a lab escape negligible.

As a followup, I would ask: How many such reservoirs are there, how close are they to human population etc., and therefore what is the probability that the virus came out of this particular one? How many of these BSL-4 labs are located next to such reservoirs? etc. All with the goal of estimating how likely a lab escape was.

I would like to emphasize that (1) it is important that we know the truth, because it will inform our preparation for future pandemics, and (2) there is sufficient evidence that warrants a serious look at the possibility of a lab escape. Instead of dismissing it as a "conspiracy theory", or leaving it all to the biologists, I suggest taking considering all the evidence and trying to estimate these probabilities.

Re: The evidence which suggests that Covid-19 is not a naturally evolved virus [pdf]

#194
post #47

When Nobel laureate Luc Montagnier suggested that COVID-19 could be man-made, I started taking this view more seriously. Now seeing additional papers coming out supporting this, the case is getting stronger. I'm not a biologist but I do find it strange that COVID-19 is so infectious in humans. How can a virus which supposedly 'naturally evolved' in a totally unrelated animal species (bats) be so well adapted to sprea…

By the same logic, was the H1N1 spanish flu designed to perfectly flourish and kill possibly 10% of hosts? You say it in your second paragraph. You're no biologist. But you find it strange. Very few biologists find it strange. They have in fact been warning of a ticking time bomb [0 for brevity, 1 for article]. May I respectfully suggest that you stick to your lane regarding the science? WHO ups and downs and politic…

> May I respectfully suggest that you stick to your lane regarding the science?

I don't think there is a respectful way to utter this phrase. Honestly, even saying "I think you're full of shit" would be more respectful.

Re: The evidence which suggests that Covid-19 is not a naturally evolved virus [pdf]

#195
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good summary, thanks! Related to the origin hypotheses, the hypothesis of zoonotic outbreak from a wet market in mid-Dec no longer seems as relevant. It was first laid out in a widely disseminated paper in The Lancet [1, see Figure 1B], but since then retrospective wastewater analyses from Italy[2], Spain[3], Brazil and others[4] have found it was circulating much earlier. "The Italian National Institute of Health lo…

> Related to the origin hypotheses, the hypothesis of zoonotic outbreak from a wet market in mid-Dec no longer seems as relevant Perhaps in your mind, but this is not at all a fair representation of the general scientific consensus - most still hold the weight of the evidence leans towards a November '19 origin in Wuhan

Please don't spew falsehoods and add 'general concesus' to it.

There are reports that the French team that traveled in October in Wuhan for mil. sports games, got infected by it. So, that it was at circulating in Wuhan at least since October, even most probably: early september.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/08/covid-19-pandemi...

Re: The evidence which suggests that Covid-19 is not a naturally evolved virus [pdf]

#196
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the same logic, was the H1N1 spanish flu designed to perfectly flourish and kill possibly 10% of hosts? You say it in your second paragraph. You're no biologist. But you find it strange. Very few biologists find it strange. They have in fact been warning of a ticking time bomb [0 for brevity, 1 for article]. May I respectfully suggest that you stick to your lane regarding the science? WHO ups and downs and politic…

The H1N1 flu spread during the first world war that humanity has ever had. It came in waves and each wave was evolved. Talk about extremely unique circumstances to brew the perfect storm. When COVID-19 spread, there was literally nothing different occuring at the time that could have provoked any evolutionary changes in any virus to be more evolved in infecting humans outside of normal human density levels. Flu virus…

> there was literally nothing different occuring at the time that could have provoked any evolutionary changes in any virus to be more evolved in infecting humans outside of normal human density levels.

There is now, though. We're selecting strains that aren't as concerned with masks and social distancing. Back in March, I remember reading some anecdotal accounts of cities' responses to H1N1, but it wasn't widespread. We've never actually stopped somethings this widespread, so it's not clear how these measures play out long-term.

Re: The evidence which suggests that Covid-19 is not a naturally evolved virus [pdf]

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s taken me a little while to parse this one. HN has always felt like a good/safe place (to me) to talk about interesting things with a mix of experts and lay people. When it gets down to science though, agree or disagree need to be left to the experts. I can’t be the expert/final arbiter because my knowledge isn’t good enough (although I have some capacity), and so I am encouraging OP to go with the experts on thi…

Ben Franklin once said that the best argument against democracy was a discussion with the average voter. But I think there is an equal risk there of members of a society being unwilling to read what experts put out, and evaluate it themselves as well. Once people start saying I don't know anything about this and I can't make any determinations, democracy starts to make a lot less sense. At the end of the day science…

I won't comment on the rest of your post, but I'd like to point out that there's no evidence Ben Franklin said that. That quote is commonly misattributed to Churchill, but that seems to also be a misattribution [1].

[1] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill

Re: The evidence which suggests that Covid-19 is not a naturally evolved virus [pdf]

#198
It is interesting to think about the origins of Covid-19 with Bayesian statistics in mind. We believe that the virus originated in Wuhan, and the two competing "mainstream" theories are whether the virus came from a wet market or a bio lab.

I don't know exactly how many wet markets exist in China, but I would guess that there are thousands spread across China. A wet market is simply a place where fresh produce/meat is sold (think farmer's market). "In Hong Kong, for example, there is a widespread network of wet markets where thousands of locals shop everyday for their meat and vegetables. There is one in almost every district and none of them trade in exotic or wild animals." [1] Of these $\Theta(1000)$ wet markets, probably a few are located in Wuhan.

Notably, there is only one level 4 bio lab in China, and it happens to be located in Wuhan. [2]

You can't conclude anything with absolute certainty doing this kind of probabilistic analysis, but this line of argument swayed me to seriously consider the possibility that the virus originated in the lab.

And, of course, note that we do not have to assume any malicious intentions. It's easy to imagine a virus accidentally escaping the lab, regardless of whether it evolved naturally or with some human intervention to facilitate research. A State Department cable from 2018 wrote that the lab "has a serious shortage of appropriately trained technicians and investigators needed to safely operate this high-containment laboratory.” [3]

[1] https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/14/asia/china-wet-market-coronav...

[2] https://www.livescience.com/china-lab-meets-biosafety-levels...

[3] https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/state-depar...

Footnote: Yes, I know that $\Theta(1000)$ just means "some constant" from a mathematical perspective. But I think the idea is clear, even if the mathematical statement taken at face value conveys no information.

Re: The evidence which suggests that Covid-19 is not a naturally evolved virus [pdf]

#199
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why give a government with modern day concentration camps, forced organ harvesting, and military occupation of free countries like Hong Kong the benefit of the doubt on biological weapons research gone awry?

C'mon Hong Kong belongs to China and always was. It was just leased to UK and this lease had ended in last century. China just wanted to reap benefits of Being Kong economy this is why they given them such a huge autonomy . They can change it anytime as this is their property. If someone would follow your logic Hawai is also US occupied country ...

Hawaii was taken from its native peoples and there is a very slow process underway to remediate that. [0]

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_recognit...

Re: The evidence which suggests that Covid-19 is not a naturally evolved virus [pdf]

#200

Can't be coincidence https://medium.com/@yurideigin/lab-made-cov2-genealogy-throu... https://www.newsweek.com/dr-fauci-backed-controversial-wuhan...

I really hope anyone with a genetics background, or the desire to go really in depth about what makes a virus 'Lab-made', read through the above posted first article.

https://medium.com/@yurideigin/lab-made-cov2-genealogy-throu...

It takes a long time but explains why the source is not very likely to be an evolved combined bat x pangolin virus, and has curious markers similarly used in other gain-of-function research, even similar techniques as used in past research by Dr. Shi Zhengli at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Natural origin not ruled out as being impossible, but not likely.

Combining it with this possible explanation looking at the possibility of RaTG13 being entirely fabricated altogether by Dr. Shi in January 2020, and you can at least definitely see where the conspiracy arguments come from, and why the CCP has an overwhelming need to create and play up a 'natural origin' argument, along with passing on mountains of misinformation.

https://nerdhaspower.weebly.com/ratg13-is-fake.html

Very convincing articles, scary times if this is actually true.

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