Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk • Hacker News Board

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#621

Post by int_19h » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 10:01 PM UTC

prof-dr-ir wrote: post #269

It is a bit surprising to me that there is such a strong focus in the US on school closures and mask wearing (here on HN but also in the major newspapers). It is my impression that in quite a few European countries there have been, and to some extent still are, significant debates about the effectiveness of both these measures. On the other hand, there appears to have been a much more universal implementation of othe…

Social distancing isn't really contentious in US (other than the subset of the population that believes that COVID is hoax).

"Stay home" is one of those things that are on every list of recommendations, but it's completely non-viable in practice because of the way US handles healthcare in work context. Keep in mind that there is no federal requirement for paid sick leave, and only 13 states mandate it. Consequently, 30% of workers don't get any paid sick leave at all - mostly the lowest-paying jobs, that are paid the least (and so taking an unpaid day off can easily mean an unpaid bill etc), and who interact with random people the most.

And don't forget that employment in US is "at-will", meaning that businesses can fire workers without giving a reason. FMLA limits that somewhat wrt unpaid sick leave, but 1) it only applies to businesses with at least 50 employees, and 2) it only applies to illnesses that are incapacitating to the person claiming sick leave.

The focus is on mask wearing right now, because the return to stay-at-home is clearly not happening, and so people go and mingle. If they mingle with masks, they definitely reduce the transmission rate enough to notice - there's ample evidence of that. What's unclear is just how large the effect is.

Also, why focus on Europe alone? We could also look at Japan, which seems to have made a bet largely on mask wearing - and has some impressive results to show for that.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#622

Post by rayiner » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 10:03 PM UTC

GeneralMayhem wrote: post #519

rayiner wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’re not a “country.” We’re 50 different states with a federal government, which doesn’t have public health as one of its assigned roles. This isn’t an ideological point, it’s a bare recitation of fact. Somehow, other federal republics like Germany managed to engage in an effective pandemic response while leaving most of the work to the states. For example, while Germany eventually had a mask order everywhere, the s…

>a federal government, which doesn’t have public health as one of its assigned roles Yes, it does. It may not be explicitly enumerated in the Constitution, but the federal government is absolutely tasked with responding to national disasters, of which pandemics are one example. What is the CDC? What is FEMA? What is the NIH? >Merkel didn’t issue a national mask order, for the same reason Trump didn’t: she wasn’t lega…

Even to the extent that we’ve long ignored the constitution on these issues, we still haven’t put the federal government in a primary role for public health. The federal government is not supposed to be the front-line response to a pandemic. CDC’s own documents make clear, for example, that it is supposed to provide expert advice and deal with patients that cross state lines, while states are supposed to handle actual testing and intervention: https://www.cdc.gov/phlp/docs/phl101/PHL101-Unit-5-16Jan09-S....

Same thing with FEMA. It’s not supposed to be front-line disaster response. It’s supposed to be a backstop for when a particular state is overwhelmed. That’s why FEMA is legally not allowed to act until a governor declares a state of emergency and asks for assistance. But every state is supposed to be prepared to handle their own disasters. FEMA is a backstop—it’s not supposed to have the resources to help every state at the same time.

The NIH is a research agency. It doesn’t have an operational role in public health.

Even if we overlook what’s “explicitly enumerated” and we look at the structure that exists today by historical accident, the federal government is still relegated to an advisory role, and dealing with travel. But those aren’t the things that went wrong with the pandemic response. Lockdowns are an operational role, and entrusted to the states. PPE, testing kits, having people in place to do tracing and isolation? All of that is operational, and was assigned to the state governments. Mask orders are an exercise of the general police power, and entrusted to the states.

Again, this is not an ideological point about how things should be. (Although, they are this way because that’s how the constitution sets things up.) It’s a point about whose job it was to be prepared. The states were supposed to be prepared for this, and they weren’t. By the time the pandemic hit, there wasn’t much the federal government could do. It could advise states about tracing and isolation protocols, but it has no boots on the ground to actually do any of those things. The states were supposed to be prepared to do all that.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#623

Post by jmcqk6 » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 10:03 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #553

japhyr wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can push for answers from those people, but there's probably no real answers to give. The federal response to the pandemic has been so ineffective, to put it kindly, that it leaves people at all levels with no meaningful responses. Principals, superintendents, and school boards can want to offer the support described in this thread, but have no real way to actually deliver it.

The public schools are run by the states. Look to your governor.

The public schools are only one part of our civilization. The ineffectual and incompetent national response has left no good options on the table for public schools. No matter what happens now, we're sacrificing some children because the assholes in power couldn't be bothered to care about things other than themselves.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#624

Post by pokstad » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 10:05 PM UTC

School districts should give at-risk teachers the first pick for virtual work. When they run out of virtual teaching jobs, they should offer voluntary furlough. Allowing teachers the flexibility to temporarily leave would allow younger and healthier risk-takers to step up and do the job during the pandemic. In our current economy, there are tons of young healthy workers willing to take these teaching jobs.

Any worker is free to quit if they don't agree with the risks. The real problem, that I don't see mentioned anywhere, is that teachers want to continue being paid the same salary and benefits to teach virtually, despite virtual learning being a disaster. They want to have their cake and eat it too.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#625

Post by kevin_thibedeau » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 10:06 PM UTC

monkeyfacebag wrote: post #491

rayiner wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’re not a “country.” We’re 50 different states with a federal government, which doesn’t have public health as one of its assigned roles. This isn’t an ideological point, it’s a bare recitation of fact. Somehow, other federal republics like Germany managed to engage in an effective pandemic response while leaving most of the work to the states. For example, while Germany eventually had a mask order everywhere, the s…

wait, what is the CDC then? I am not trying to argue with you. I haven't heard the take that the US government doesn't have a public health role and am looking to learn.

Given their new "4-6 weeks and its done" schedule it's now just a political mouthpiece neutered to prevent any negative messaging near November.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#626

Post by electriclove » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 10:09 PM UTC

oramit wrote: post #358

What we currently have going on right now is a complete collapse in confidence. So many commenters are debating the death rate, case counts, hospitalizations, etc, which is all besides the point. Heres the thing: even if you believe people are being irrationally afraid, telling people they are stupid and should just suck it up isn't going to get people to cooperate. Do you want to be smugly right, or do you want thin…

I'm very pleased by the decision from the top in California today about keeping schools remote until things get better. The only complaint I have is how long it took to get there. Tons of people at hundreds/thousands of school districts and private schools throughout the state have spent incredible effort debating and planning and so much effort could have been saved if the decision from the top was made earlier.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#627

Post by electriclove » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 10:10 PM UTC

marcell wrote: post #618

watwut wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Complete eradication is not what Europe nor China are doing and have better results.

It's not really clear they are having better results. I don't know what the numbers are out of China, but certainly in Europe they had really big outbreaks in Italy, France, the UK, Spain, and other places as well. Their outcomes are pretty similar, in terms of deaths per capita, to the United States. I think most media outlets are over-emphasizing the impact of government interventions, and under-emphasizing the imp…

No place in the world is handling this as poorly as we have. Well.. maybe Brazil?

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#628

Post by cortesoft » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 10:11 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #228

DenisM wrote: post #219

The Los Angelos teachers added a few other requests [1]. The introduction starts with: [...] LAUSD educators clearly want to get back into schools with their students, but the underlying question at every step must be: Given broader societal conditions, how do we open physical schools in a way that ensures that the benefit outweigh the risks [...] And then proceeds to the following recommendations, among many others:…

I don't understand the logic around the left's hatred of charters. Parents choose to send their kids there - if the existing public school was so good, why would they send them somewhere else? It's simply about choice, and sending your own kids to the best possible option. No one would ever deny their own children the best possible education available. It's so clearly about administrators and professionals over the n…

I would suggest checking out the great John Oliver bit on charter schools to get an idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_htSPGAY7I

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#629

Post by nine_zeros » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 10:12 PM UTC

RestlessMind wrote: post #562

jimbokun wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has handled the pandemic worse than any country in the world, except maybe Brazil. Otherwise, I can't think of a country that has handled it worse. Which countries are doing a worse job than the US in handling Coronavirus, in your opinion?

Apart from Brazil (which you mentioned), the US is doing a far better job than India and Bangladesh in terms of supporting the economy and social safety nets like one time stimulus payments, boosting unemployment benefits, aid to businesses etc. [Source: close families / friends living in those two countries].

The fact that US being compared with India and Bangladesh should already give you a hint about where the US stands.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#630

Post by lostapathy » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 10:13 PM UTC

jacksnipe wrote: post #498

mtgp1000 wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Telling people that only 1% of them will die so it's all okay is telling people you don't care about them - they notice, they're not dumb. No no no no no. It's high time we stop treating everything as black and white in this country. It's not just callously disregarding the dead - it's about determining whether the literal and figurative loss of life caused by a lockdown is worth the loss of life caused by the virus…

Lives are only lost in a lockdown scenario because of god awful policy. Pay people to stay home. Feed the poor.

That only works when we have food to feed everyone ... which requires a surprising amount of people to stay at work. Besides the obvious people working in the fields/farms, there's a lot of support businesses that need to stay open. The people who repairs the tractors, the people who make parts for the feeders in the barns, etc, which need support for their own manufacturing equipment.

We can't just "shut it all down" worldwide and not run out of food.