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New iOS privacy feature may end an era of personalized ads

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Re: New iOS privacy feature may end an era of personalized ads

#331

Post by m463 »

jchook wrote: post #295
deeblering4 wrote: post #266

This is a big reason why I continue to use apple devices. They seem to be one of the few large tech companies that aligns themselves with users rights to privacy. Apple isn’t perfect. But they build very good privacy and security into their products. And they structure their UI and defaults in such a way that the average user benefits with no effort or specialized knowledge.

I definitely see some questionable privacy practices by Apple... - While "10x less", iPhone still sends your private information (such as location) to Apple on a regular basis[1]. - Apple encrypts iCloud backups with a key they control, not end-to-end[2]. This means that Apple can decrypt and inspect your phone and computer backups. - According to the article, iOS developers can use their "new privacy-focused ad fram…

actually you could go further and say:

- Apple doesn't let you secure your OWN device. Apple does not give you permission to run a firewall or any other app to do your own security.

- Apple doesn't allow you to see what your phone is doing. You cannot see what apps are running, when they are running or what data is being sent where.

- Apple encumbers your data. It doesn't provide an alternative to icloud. Why not a personal icloud, self-hosted on macos. Why not even a time-machine backup of your phone? Apple could make it easy, but instead they try to upsell you on more icloud storage.

Re: New iOS privacy feature may end an era of personalized ads

#332

Post by foresto »

jchook wrote: post #295
deeblering4 wrote: post #266

This is a big reason why I continue to use apple devices. They seem to be one of the few large tech companies that aligns themselves with users rights to privacy. Apple isn’t perfect. But they build very good privacy and security into their products. And they structure their UI and defaults in such a way that the average user benefits with no effort or specialized knowledge.

I definitely see some questionable privacy practices by Apple... - While "10x less", iPhone still sends your private information (such as location) to Apple on a regular basis[1]. - Apple encrypts iCloud backups with a key they control, not end-to-end[2]. This means that Apple can decrypt and inspect your phone and computer backups. - According to the article, iOS developers can use their "new privacy-focused ad fram…

Indeed. While we're at it, let's not forget the PRISM [1] program, or the fact that "privacy from advert companies" does not imply "privacy from all surveillance".

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants...

Re: New iOS privacy feature may end an era of personalized ads

#333

Post by alkonaut »

soared wrote: post #307
alkonaut wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

”My employer should switch to a different business model or go under” isn’t a weird opinion.

"The industry I work in should die for ethical reasons." - Skilled knowledge worker who could move to another industry, but the money bought out their ethics.

I said “change or”. That’s an important distinction.

Lots of people work in industries that have questionable practices.

It’s a pretty far jump from working at, say, a newspaper that shows ad-network ads (which I find questionable and I think falls into the category “find a new business model or die”), and working for something actually unethical.

Also what I meant wasn’t that a whole industry such as online news should die, only change business model.

Re: New iOS privacy feature may end an era of personalized ads

#334

Post by GekkePrutser »

LeoPanthera wrote: post #282
GekkePrutser wrote: post #134

This won't be the end of it. It's just one of the many battles. And iOS isn't for everyone. Yes it's great for protecting privacy but it's also extremely restrictive for the users. The fact that they don't even allow real third-party browsers is baffling in this day and age. I also can't use my Yubikey in OpenPGP mode which I really need for my password manager and SSH access. I know it supports U2F now but that's no…

The vast majority of users don't care about the issues you mention. They don't know what a browser engine is. They don't know what PGP is. They haven't heard of SSH and U2F. And the only opinion they have on cookies is that they want those "We use cookies, is that OK?" banners to go away forever. These are issues that only developers and the superest of superusers care about. So it's not surprising that HN commenters…

Yeah they're a big deal for me... I don't care about other users ;)

That's what I mean with "iOS is not for everyone". They try to cater only to the average user. Or at least the more affluent subset of those. I'm not everyone but I'm certainly part of 'everyone' :)

In fact this is really what's pushing me away from Mac too as they're heading in the same direction. When I moved to Mac in 2004 they were a great POSIX capable system with a great UI (unlike the mess Linux was at that time) and custom software. Now more and more power features are replaced by on/off sliders that don't do what I need.

Windows and Android are heading in the opposite direction, adding more power features. I really like the power that things like DeX and Termux provide (though the latter isn't necessarily a feature, it's definitely something that wouldn't work on iOS). I can work a whole day on my phone, multitasking and everything. You can't do that with an iPhone.

Still, both with Windows and Android you give up considerable privacy. And that's not necessarily needed. Things like scoped storage should have happened years ago.

Re: New iOS privacy feature may end an era of personalized ads

#335

Post by sparker72678 »

nerdjon wrote: post #143

This is the number one feature on iOS 14 that I cannot wait for. I am getting very tired of finding out that unrelated services know that I have used a specific app (like Facebook knows way too much). Somewhat related (even though this is focused on Apps). I have noticed an uptick in websites that don't support safari, likely due to how they handle cookies. I hope this does not become super common (but I can't imagin…

You can already get some of these benefit by going to Settings -> Privacy -> Advertising and turn on "Limit Ad Tracking".

This sends an all-zeros IDFA to all APIs that request it^1.

iOS 14 begins the new prompts, lets you toggle this on a per-app basis, and, by being in front of users is just about guaranteed to dramatically increase the number of users who are opted-in.

[^1] https://support.appsflyer.com/hc/en-us/articles/115003734626...

Re: New iOS privacy feature may end an era of personalized ads

#336

Post by sparker72678 »

Worth noting that you can already get some of these benefits today by going to Settings -> Privacy -> Advertising and turning on "Limit Ad Tracking".

This sends an all-zeros IDFA to all APIs that request it^1.

iOS 14 begins the new prompts, lets you toggle this on a per-app basis, and, by being in front of users is just about guaranteed to dramatically increase the number of users who are opted-in.

[^1] https://support.appsflyer.com/hc/en-us/articles/115003734626...

Re: New iOS privacy feature may end an era of personalized ads

#337

Post by Jommi »

the_snooze wrote: post #303
Shank wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The products that I care about actually do offer personalized ads without tracking: think podcasts (not from major networks, but podcasts like ATP or Relay FM), blogs (like Daring fireball), and YouTubers in an area of interest I have (MKBHD, Linus Tech Tips). I don't even mind sponsored content from these people because more often than not, the products are sensible, tailored to my interests, and actually appealing.…

Podcasts should be the gold standard for online advertising. They're perfect for everyone involved: there's no creepy tracking involved, and the ads are appealing because podcast producers tend to know and respect their audience. I never skip podcast ads because they're often entertaining in and of themselves (e.g., Reply All). I like this sort of "personalization" podcasts do in their ads: with human judgment where…

They're not perfect for everyone. It's usually a huge blackbox for advertisers who don't know what they are getting until they've dipped 50-100k into it and tracked the resulting conversions later in the funnel.

Re: New iOS privacy feature may end an era of personalized ads

#338

Post by rgovostes »

m463 wrote: post #331
jchook wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I definitely see some questionable privacy practices by Apple... - While "10x less", iPhone still sends your private information (such as location) to Apple on a regular basis[1]. - Apple encrypts iCloud backups with a key they control, not end-to-end[2]. This means that Apple can decrypt and inspect your phone and computer backups. - According to the article, iOS developers can use their "new privacy-focused ad fram…

actually you could go further and say: - Apple doesn't let you secure your OWN device. Apple does not give you permission to run a firewall or any other app to do your own security. - Apple doesn't allow you to see what your phone is doing. You cannot see what apps are running, when they are running or what data is being sent where. - Apple encumbers your data. It doesn't provide an alternative to icloud. Why not a p…

> Apple does not give you permission to run a firewall or any other app to do your own security.

Apple does allow security products on the Mac, and I have analyzed popular ones such as SecureMac's MacScan 2, and others that were on the Mac App Store's bestseller list, and there are tons of scams.

Users hear that it's good advice to install antivirus but don't know how to evaluate them. It is to Apple's discredit (and publishers like MacWorld that gave glowing reviews to MacScan) that these flourish on the Mac, but thankfully iOS users have not been duped to the same extent.

I don't know if it's really true that you're not allowed to run firewalls and such on iOS. They provide content blocking and VPN APIs. See the ability for Wireguard to introduce a completely new VPN protocol simply by installing an app. There is a lot of engineering effort that goes into supporting that.

> You cannot see what apps are running.

The model for when apps are executing is more complicated on iOS. I don't think it's as useful to think about an app's lifecycle as you do on a traditional desktop OS. Security that relies on you "catching" an app executing (if such monitoring is not always-on) is not good security.

> Why not even a time-machine backup of your phone?

You can easily back up an iPhone (encrypted, even) to a Mac or PC. This has existed longer than iCloud Backup. Apple does not release tools for inspecting an opaque backup blob, though there are some reverse engineered ones.

Re: New iOS privacy feature may end an era of personalized ads

#339

Post by kohtatsu »

Yetanfou wrote: post #322
kohtatsu wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's cool, but I doubt the people in need of a cheap phone have the wherewithal to install and maintain Lineage.

It more or less maintains itself with OTA updates, just like a stock distribution. The initial (slight) hurdle is installing the thing but once that is done these devices can be maintained by anyone who can maintain a stock Android or iOS distribution.

Eh really? I'm pleased to hear that, I'll try to pick up a used phone for Lineage soon.

Re: New iOS privacy feature may end an era of personalized ads

#340

Post by ardy42 »

artificial wrote: post #311
ardy42 wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unless you're considering any advertisement manipulation. Any advertisement is manipulation. Think about it: the purpose of an ad is to influence your decisions primarily for the benefit the self-interest of the party that paid for the ad (otherwise they wouldn't have paid for it). Any benefit you derive from your decision is secondary, and doesn't typically factor into the decision to take out the ad. That's prett…

I'm looking at this more from a product standpoint. When someone shows an ad for a vehicle that's priced lower than before and I'm in the market for a car, I'd like to know about it. What do you consider an advertisement? Is a business sign an advertisement? I consider a lunch special saving me the time of thumbing through a menu, I don't consider it manipulation which has negative connotations as well and seems pret…

> When someone shows an ad for a vehicle that's priced lower than before and I'm in the market for a car, I'd like to know about it.

But that's not what modern advertising is. Let's look at a real car ad. Here's the first ad for a discrete vehicle that wasn't a Lambo that I found on youtube searching for "car ad": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk5QL_kKN_g.

It's message is roughly "if you drive a Land Rover you'll kinda be like this rugged, skillful, and cool adventurer guy who's driving a Land Rover." It doesn't mention price once and barely touches on any features. That's pretty par for the course for modern car ads: they aren't selling the product, but an emotional connection to a lifestyle.

Here's another one, it's the first one I found searching for "car ad" limited to this week: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYkLjcQP26M. It doesn't mention price or and features. It's just pure association of positive emotions with the product.

The Land Rover looks rugged, but "a sleek fusion of zen...and spacecraft" is more my style. The Nissan Ariya is also a force, which is a big plus. Nissan it is, then!

> What do you consider an advertisement? Is a business sign an advertisement?

Product catalogs, menus, and business signs aren't advertisements (though sometimes they contain some marketing or are manipulative, but that's less common with them than with ads). They can be simple informational documents, and are cheap compared to an ad campaign. Ads are typically paid placements in some kind of media, meant to influence a consumer to benefit the advertiser (usually by making a purchase, eventually).

> I consider a lunch special saving me the time of thumbing through a menu...

It would also save time if they just ordered for you. You'd save the time, they'd get to sell you their item with the highest profit margin. Win-win?

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