Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk • Hacker News Board

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#591

Post by perl4ever » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:42 PM UTC

RestlessMind wrote: post #394

not2b wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of this is a consequence of ideologies that have become popular in the US both in politics and in business. Having government direct a mobilization is not acceptable. A mandate that people wear masks is not acceptable. Having manufacturing capacity to make low-value products in large numbers in the US is bad business when poorer countries can do it for less. Having spare inventory is bad, because just-in-time man…

> Having government direct a mobilization is not acceptable. Then you would expect divergent performance in the D-controlled states (eg. California) vs the R-controlled states (eg. Texas), no? So far, I see all types of states having similar outcomes. > ... good leadership ... but we chose someone who is committed to division, ... I'm no fan of our current leader, but let's be honest Obama failed to properly launch a…

>Obama failed to properly launch a simple website for his signature initiative

It's very frustrating seeing people continually arguing that because some people screw up, learn from experience, and fix things, that it justifies others going in the opposite direction, ignoring experience, and breaking things.

Even before your metrics show that the destruction has reached a crossover point, the latter is fundamentally different because it's unnecessary. The former is fundamentally sound because there will always be mistakes.

It doesn't matter how bad you think government is, it's not an argument for making it worse.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#592

Post by cactuss4 » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:42 PM UTC

czbond wrote: post #298

DenisM wrote: post #219

The Los Angelos teachers added a few other requests [1]. The introduction starts with: [...] LAUSD educators clearly want to get back into schools with their students, but the underlying question at every step must be: Given broader societal conditions, how do we open physical schools in a way that ensures that the benefit outweigh the risks [...] And then proceeds to the following recommendations, among many others:…

I laughed when I first heard about this. Maybe they took the approach of asking for so many un-reasonable things to make sure the school does not open.

Throw everything on the table and "make concessions"?

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#593

Post by watwut » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:43 PM UTC

marcell wrote: post #540

oramit wrote: post #358

What we currently have going on right now is a complete collapse in confidence. So many commenters are debating the death rate, case counts, hospitalizations, etc, which is all besides the point. Heres the thing: even if you believe people are being irrationally afraid, telling people they are stupid and should just suck it up isn't going to get people to cooperate. Do you want to be smugly right, or do you want thin…

> we didn't follow through with the lockdown nationally to actually stomp the virus This statement implies that there's a way to completely eradicate the virus, eg. if everyone in the world stays locked in their homes for 6 weeks, then the virus will be eradicated. That's not realistic, the level of coordination required to make that happen does not exist. So eradicating the virus was never on the table, no matter ho…

Complete eradication is not what Europe nor China are doing and have better results.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#594

Post by tathougies » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:44 PM UTC

csb6 wrote: post #240

tathougies wrote: post #199

Wonderful. If they stay employed, we have to pay their salaries, despite not receiving any kind of education for America's children. We can't fire them, due to the union. But if they quit, we achieve everything -- tax payers save money for something they are not getting, and the funds can be used to educate children (Perhaps by direct payments to parents for use in hiring private tutors, or whatever).

This comment shows an astounding lack of anything resembling human empathy. Teachers do not want to return to work because the outbreak is getting worse in many places, and the already underpaid job of being a teacher would become even more dangerous. Ask any teacher (especially grade school) during normal times: they get sick constantly, and kids constantly pass around colds/the flu. In AZ, the emergency room ICUs a…

> Instead, you (and probably a large portion of older, affluent Americans) will celebrate as our already underpaid teachers are forced to seek other work rather than kill their students/families. Before the pandemic, many teachers in my district were forced to work second jobs (e.g. at restaurants). This is a breaking point.

Yes. Teachers at private schools are paid much less but produce better outcomes, despite having similar demographics. For example, Catholic school teachers earn much less (and catholic schools spend much less per pupil than similar pupils at public schools). Yet the outcomes are better. This is not a problem with pay. The public school system and teachers who are complicit in it have failed our students.

And to be clear.. I am not older. I have soon-to-be school age children. My mother was a teacher. We have seen the rot in the system, and our children will not be attending. Especially as a minority, we cannot let our children be subject to the silent and self-denying racism inherent in the public school system. Sorry you don't get to ruin my kid's life as people like you forced my mother to ruin other children's lives be following the edicts of the public school system.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#595

Post by Avicebron » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:45 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #575

Avicebron wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed it's a disturbing realization of the unspoken acknowledgment people in the US have been forced to live with: "capitalism doesn't care if you live or die"

Neither does socialism, communism, or nature.

And I wasn't advocating for any one of those as a fundamentally better system, assuming you mean raw unfettered nature, hunter-gatherer style. And even then it's likely there is a tribe that cares..but I digress.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#596

Post by larntz » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:46 PM UTC

ashtonkem wrote: post #407

larntz wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people have felt the same about having children throughout most of history. Do you want a child born into slavery? Do you want a child subject to a totalitarian government? Do you want a child born into extreme poverty or famine? I feel like if you want to have a kid you have one and you deal with whatever adversity comes along. Take the opportunity to prepare your child to deal with the world that exists reg…

This argument is unconvincing and really annoying. I don’t care about the calculus other people had to go through to have children in other times because I’m not them . Every human makes decisions based on the pressures they experience in their own life, pointing out that times were worse elsewhere is just annoying pedantry. And of course, part of my point was I’m dubious about having a kid in America . As in, I’d be…

I had no intention of being annoying. Apologies for that. I only meant to offer some optimism.

I understand your point of view, and I respect it.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#597

Post by RestlessMind » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:46 PM UTC

avz wrote: post #576

RestlessMind wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's see - US government instituted reasonably prompt lockdowns. They mailed one-time stimulus checks to everyone, gave 600$ unemployment insurance boosts, ramped up hospital capacities, opened up other support measures for businesses and allowed 50 parallel experiments (at state level) to see what works and what doesn't. Was the response perfect? Certainly not. Did some other countries do better? I'm sure we could…

> Was the response perfect? Certainly not. No, it was not perfect. According to [1] the US has 27% of all cases of COVID-19, 24% of all COVID-19 deaths and 29% of new cases yesterday. For comparison US has 4.3% of world's population [2]. > Did some other countries do better? [...] it just means that you have only been exposed to Scandinavia and/or Singapore Did some countries do worse? Italy is often cited as a badly…

> the US has 27% of all cases of COVID-19

has 27% of all the known cases - FTFY! Do you honestly believe the reported number of cases from the populous developing countries known for their corruption and a lack of functioning systems (I come from one, so I know first hand how they work)?

> I'm asking, because when it comes to COVID-19 the US is doing so badly...

so badly in terms of what? Reported number of cases, which is miserably under-reported due to a lack of testing / credible systems in the majority parts of the world (at least by population)? I know that people are losing jobs in the US, businesses are bankrupting but where I come from, people are starving and a 12 yo was begging for food when my sister went for grocery shopping, since his family hadn't had enough food in 2 days.

If you are in the US and haven't experienced a poor society first-hand (beyond a 2-3 week vacation in the tourist spots in such places), please count yourself lucky and appreciate what you've got!

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#598

Post by thewebcount » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:47 PM UTC

usaar333 wrote: post #481

politelemon wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do they have the budget for counseling when students and teachers pass away? It pains me to admit that this didn't even occur to me as part of the topic of teachers being sent back. The human aspects of students-teacher relationships. I feel I've been desensitized to this after exposing myself to a constant stream of news, and now I'm thinking further about what other aspects lie behind other headlines. Thank you f…

It's a human aspect, but to be blunt, it's not a significant consideration as long as you aren't opening schools in an area with high community transfer (e.g. Houston today). IF you additionally filter out high risk-group teaches (known pre-existing health conditions, older than 65, etc.) excess death risk is quite low. (e.g. in the Bay Area, dying in a car crash remains far more likely (~10x) if you meet the criteri…

This strikes me as highly naive. We have states here in the US banning cities from implementing mandatory mask rules. Do you really think places like that are going to tell people older than 65 not to come in? Do you think if someone who's high risk refuses that they'll still have a job in a place like that? If you're over 65 and will potentially lose your pension for not going in to work, you're probably going to have to think twice about that before just saying no.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#599

Post by mynameisvlad » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:47 PM UTC

electriclove wrote: post #547

mistermann wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now, all of this could be turned around quickly with good leadership that could rally the country behind a cause, but we chose someone who... Were all of these issues nonexistent under prior administrations? Or, as for turning it around, are you asserting that Clinton both could have and would have done so? If so, how do you know this?

You are getting downvoted for your political statement. I really wish the parent comment kept out the last bit because the conversation then devolves to red/blue, left/right, white/black. We, as a country, screwed the handling of this. It isn't just one person. It is the way our entire system works. How do we fix it?

Yes, the country screwed up, but ultimately, the country is represented by a single leader, and said single leader is responsible for the response of the country as a whole.

With great power (like presidency), comes great responsibility (like properly leading the country through a global pandemic) and with great responsibility comes great criticism where said responsibility isn't followed through.

They're not getting downvoted for a political statement. They're getting downvoted by implying that someone else wouldn't do a better job than probably the worst possible response to Covid.

Objectively, the response we've had from the leadership of the country has been terrible, and the effects are evident when you look at # of cases. Also objectively, any other response would have been better. Obviously, I can't tell with absolute certainty what other leaders would have done, but I can assure you it'd have been better than what we have now.

To say otherwise is ignoring the current state of the country and the response that has resulted in said state.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#600

Post by Avicebron » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:47 PM UTC

RestlessMind wrote: post #580

Proziam wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that people think the D's and R's are dramatically different. They both have similar statist agendas just marketing themselves towards different demographics. Neither party has many any substantial effort to rebuild our infrastructure, develop genuine disaster preparedness, reduce tax burdens on the middle class, and so on. All of those things lead to what we're seeing now where the average person can'…

I see that you are being downvoted, but I do agree with some of your points. > people think the D's and R's are dramatically different This is so true. Let's ignore fringe topics like Green New Deal or White Supremacy and look at what the mainstream portions of the parties are debating about - abortion, transgender rights etc. But what are the key differences between tax policy or curtailing corporate powers or entan…

Yeah it's pretty obvious by reading by what is NOT being discussed and talked about that there is some serious disconnect from both the Ds and the Rs and the people that make up the US that is behind a lot of the current problems.

Sometimes the silence says more than the noise.