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Who were the Hyksos? Strontium isotope analysis of remains from ancient Egypt

journals.plos.org

11–20 of 35 posts

Re: Who were the Hyksos? Strontium isotope analysis of remains from ancient Egypt

#11
post #8
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Near East is a Eurocentric geographical term which roughly encompasses a transcontinental region comprising Western Asia, Turkey (both Anatolia and East Thrace), and Egypt (which is completely located in North Africa). [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_East

I know you’re quoting Wikipedia, but I don’t believe the Near East in this context ever refers to Egypt.

It's period specific in practice. In this period the Eastern med was closely connected so it makes sense.

Re: Who were the Hyksos? Strontium isotope analysis of remains from ancient Egypt

#12
post #3

The authors don't say which race the Hyksos have traditionally been associated with. Do they mean the Hebrews? It is interesting that the strontium isotope analysis suggests they did not come from a single homeland, but were from a variety of locations across the near East. I'm not sure I'm identifying the race they are referring to correctly (too many History Channel documentaries maybe). For example, I don't think…

The Hyksos are traditionally not associated with a race, but with the chariot-and-archer techniques that would come to characterize Bronze Age Egyptian military power and conquest. Indeed, it is usually the other way around, with the Hyksos being the race/dynasty to whom the chariot technology is credited.

At this point in history, the folks who would become the Hebrews were living in what would become Judea. We know that Ramesses II conquered them and the surrounding area, using Hyksos-style chariots; and we know that at least one of their tribes, who Ramesses III called Peleset and we might call Philistines or Palestinians, were sea-faring and related to the Phoenicians.

In general, this all happened in the Bronze Age, but the Hebrew tradition didn't really form until the Iron Age, and there's a minimum of two centuries separating them, with Ramesses III not encountering the Sea Peoples after around ~1150 BCE and Iron Age Hebrew stories not being written down before around ~950 BCE.

Re: Who were the Hyksos? Strontium isotope analysis of remains from ancient Egypt

#13
post #10
post #3

The authors don't say which race the Hyksos have traditionally been associated with. Do they mean the Hebrews? It is interesting that the strontium isotope analysis suggests they did not come from a single homeland, but were from a variety of locations across the near East. I'm not sure I'm identifying the race they are referring to correctly (too many History Channel documentaries maybe). For example, I don't think…

>I'm not sure I'm identifying the race they are referring to correctly (too many History Channel documentaries maybe). For example, I don't think the Hebrews are supposed to have had a homeland at that point in history. The relationships between biblical accounts of pre-classical periods is necessarily shaky. The pre-kingdom parts of the bible read very much like mythology, metaphor and heroic ancestor tales. That sa…

I've been fascinated by this argument for a few years. An "ask a historian" thread on Reddit asked an important question: "Would a kingdom, that chased slaves out of Egypt, only to be met with massive defeat, record that history?". I know nothing about Egyptology, so I'd ask, "did Egyptians, as a general rule, record any of their defeats?" From my limited Google searches, they did not. So the question becomes, is there any evidence of semitic people living in Egypt. That seems to be argued a bit more.

Re: Who were the Hyksos? Strontium isotope analysis of remains from ancient Egypt

#14
post #7
post #3

The authors don't say which race the Hyksos have traditionally been associated with. Do they mean the Hebrews? It is interesting that the strontium isotope analysis suggests they did not come from a single homeland, but were from a variety of locations across the near East. I'm not sure I'm identifying the race they are referring to correctly (too many History Channel documentaries maybe). For example, I don't think…

Archaeologically speaking, the Hebrew people didn’t exist at that time in history.

Right, but one presumes that Josephus (a later Jewish historian) identified the Hyksos with the Hebrews? And he used the priest Manetho's works as source material for that claim?

So I'm curious if that is what the authors of this new study claim to be refuting. I think so, but it's unclear since they deliberately decline to mention the race they are referring to. Perhaps I should have quoted the sentence from the paper that I'm referring to (principally), "During this paper, we only refer to the dynastic rulers as the Hyksos, not the elite attendant to the rulers nor that ethnic group with which they are associated."

From my History Channel knowledge (not expert in any way), there has been a revival of interest in identifying the Hyksos with the Hebrews due to the location of a signet ring in Avaris by the archaeologist Manfred Bietak with "Ykb Hr" (Jacob?) inscribed on it. There is also a tomb with a statue of a Hyksos ruler who seemed to be almost as important as Pharoah himself, complete with what appears to be a multicoloured raiment painted on the statue.

Armed with this dumbed down version of archaelogy my interest in the paper is piqued. But they aren't so clear what they are refuting.

Re: Who were the Hyksos? Strontium isotope analysis of remains from ancient Egypt

#15
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm not sure I'm identifying the race they are referring to correctly (too many History Channel documentaries maybe). For example, I don't think the Hebrews are supposed to have had a homeland at that point in history. The relationships between biblical accounts of pre-classical periods is necessarily shaky. The pre-kingdom parts of the bible read very much like mythology, metaphor and heroic ancestor tales. That sa…

I've been fascinated by this argument for a few years. An "ask a historian" thread on Reddit asked an important question: "Would a kingdom, that chased slaves out of Egypt, only to be met with massive defeat, record that history?". I know nothing about Egyptology, so I'd ask, "did Egyptians, as a general rule, record any of their defeats?" From my limited Google searches, they did not. So the question becomes, is the…

There is lots of evidence of semitic people in egypt over various periods. Also egyptian conquests & long lived administrations in these regions.

"Semitic," as a language group is pretty big. There are also semitic languages spoken to the south of egypt, who were also interacting a lot with egypt.

The Egyptians glorified their history like any political culture does, but massive defeats don't go unrecorded. They just make them seem like wins.^ In the relevant period, egypt (and the whole region) went through extreme instability. Historians don't totally understand it, and people then may not have either. But, there's lots of historical record of chaos and defeat. There are even surviving letters between besieged nobles candidly admitting major losses.

I think it's more likely that exodus was just a much bigger deal to the Israelites than it was to Egyptians. To Egypt, it was no big deal. If Pharoah really had witnessed the sea part, and an angry god destroying his army... there would be a relief. Egyptians recorded noteworthy events.

That said, it was a declining period and the egyptian record is patchy during these times.

^EG https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Seev%C3%B6lker.jpg#/...

Re: Who were the Hyksos? Strontium isotope analysis of remains from ancient Egypt

#16
post #3

The authors don't say which race the Hyksos have traditionally been associated with. Do they mean the Hebrews? It is interesting that the strontium isotope analysis suggests they did not come from a single homeland, but were from a variety of locations across the near East. I'm not sure I'm identifying the race they are referring to correctly (too many History Channel documentaries maybe). For example, I don't think…

The Hyksos are traditionally not associated with a race, but with the chariot-and-archer techniques that would come to characterize Bronze Age Egyptian military power and conquest. Indeed, it is usually the other way around, with the Hyksos being the race/dynasty to whom the chariot technology is credited. At this point in history, the folks who would become the Hebrews were living in what would become Judea. We know…

I don't completely follow your second paragraph. Are the Philistines now believed to have been Hebrew? That's a development I wasn't aware of.

I'm also not clear how the use of Hyksos-style chariots by Ramesses II's is linked. The Hyksos rulers in Egypt were a couple of centuries earlier, right?

Anyhow, can you shed any light on the "the elite attendant to the rulers" and the "ethnic group with which they are associated" mentioned in the paper?

Re: Who were the Hyksos? Strontium isotope analysis of remains from ancient Egypt

#17
post #10
post #3

The authors don't say which race the Hyksos have traditionally been associated with. Do they mean the Hebrews? It is interesting that the strontium isotope analysis suggests they did not come from a single homeland, but were from a variety of locations across the near East. I'm not sure I'm identifying the race they are referring to correctly (too many History Channel documentaries maybe). For example, I don't think…

>I'm not sure I'm identifying the race they are referring to correctly (too many History Channel documentaries maybe). For example, I don't think the Hebrews are supposed to have had a homeland at that point in history. The relationships between biblical accounts of pre-classical periods is necessarily shaky. The pre-kingdom parts of the bible read very much like mythology, metaphor and heroic ancestor tales. That sa…

Pre-Kingdom? David and Solomon are larger than life figures in bible but afaik no contemporary neighbor recorded their existence. They are historic ghosts. Pure fiction.

Re: Who were the Hyksos? Strontium isotope analysis of remains from ancient Egypt

#18
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm not sure I'm identifying the race they are referring to correctly (too many History Channel documentaries maybe). For example, I don't think the Hebrews are supposed to have had a homeland at that point in history. The relationships between biblical accounts of pre-classical periods is necessarily shaky. The pre-kingdom parts of the bible read very much like mythology, metaphor and heroic ancestor tales. That sa…

Pre-Kingdom? David and Solomon are larger than life figures in bible but afaik no contemporary neighbor recorded their existence. They are historic ghosts. Pure fiction.

Sure. I didn't mean to draw a hard line.

The monarchic period, even David and Solomon, reads a lot more political writing. The region enters into a historical period. The biblical stories start to relate more definitely to known historical events.

David and Solomon are kind of transitional, it's really just gradual. It gets more mythical as you go back.

Immediately following from the solomon period, the bible is referencing known assyrian emperors, pharaohs, and reporting on conquests that are historically known. There are dates.

By the end of the kingdom period, it's already the babylonian era... At that point it's basically modernity.

Re: Who were the Hyksos? Strontium isotope analysis of remains from ancient Egypt

#19
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know you’re quoting Wikipedia, but I don’t believe the Near East in this context ever refers to Egypt.

Search “Near East” using Google Scholar to quickly lose that belief.

I suggest you do the same. First result for “archeology near east” contained the phrase “Near East and Egypt”

Re: Who were the Hyksos? Strontium isotope analysis of remains from ancient Egypt

#20
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pre-Kingdom? David and Solomon are larger than life figures in bible but afaik no contemporary neighbor recorded their existence. They are historic ghosts. Pure fiction.

Sure. I didn't mean to draw a hard line. The monarchic period, even David and Solomon, reads a lot more political writing. The region enters into a historical period. The biblical stories start to relate more definitely to known historical events. David and Solomon are kind of transitional, it's really just gradual. It gets more mythical as you go back. Immediately following from the solomon period, the bible is refe…

Actually, as a student of Iranian history, those "Babylonian" era records are rather intriguing, to say the least. It seems to me Judaism (and associated myths) are a product of an aborted imperial social engineering project of the aborted first Persian Empire. Even the historic divide of religious Jews and "Greek Jews" reflects the sudden collapse of the first Persian Empire and its replacement by the Greeks.

A reading of relevant biblical texts strongly suggests that the 'returnees' from Babylon were alien to whoever was living in Jerusalem. And the religion they brought back smacks of Zoroastrianism in its theological contours. Heaven, hell, resurrection, judgment, angels, and good and evil: these are Iranian elements. (Egypt also had judgment, heaven, and hell.) It took a few attempts to get the inhabitants to change their religion -- it's in the book, as they say, so don't take my word for it.

Those famous boundaries of lands promised to Abraham, for example, which stop right at the border of historic Greater Iran and Egypt, are basically the boundaries of the project 'temple state' the Persians attempted to create as a prepatory step to conquering Egypt. Heck, the Persian Emperor is even specially called "Messiah" (Divine King) in Isa. 45.

It is my opinion (and just that) that the sudden cessation of [imported Jewish] religious leaders from Babylon -- a seat of Persian Empire at that time lest we forget -- due to the collapse of the empire, is the basis of the mutatation of the work-in-progress so that the "divine mandate" of the famous Abrahamic lands were now in fact given by none other than "GOD" itself.

The irony of course, is the blowback of this Persian Imperial project 2500 years later.

[minor corrective edits]

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