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Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

latimes.com

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Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#201
post #194
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Retribution is needed to prevent vigilante justice and to cause fear to potential criminals. Remember the story of the drunk driver who killed several people in a crash [0]? He was "punished" by going to a club med like rehab facility where he was taught about the wrongs of his actions by horse back riding. Imagine if all drunk drivers were punished that way? 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethan_Couch

I am not familiar with the case you are speaking of, and often times people over state what happens in minimum security facilities also I see you one of many that confuse rehabilitation with giving people a slap on the hand, or "club med" type of facilities. Retribution is in no way needed to prevent Vigilantism (Vigilantism is never justified or justice). Actual justice, and restitution prevents that just fine. Reha…

[deleted]

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#203
post #177

In the US, the criminal justice system is not concerned primarily with reforming criminals or deterring future crimes. It’s concerned mostly with making the lives of people convicted or accused of crimes (many of whom are innocent or otherwise had extenuating circumstances) absolutely miserable, retribution taken to the extreme (tangentially, I’m not against retribution in principle, but don’t think it should always…

Retribution should not be a part of any justice system. As retribution is not justice. Restitution, Rehabilitation and isolation should be the 3 goals of a true justice system. Victims should have a path to restitution when possible (some crimes this is not) Criminals should have a path to rehabilitation when possible (some crimes this is not) For when the other 2 fail, Isolation is the final step, isolation means we…

Retribution is perhaps the most intuitive — and the most questionable — aim of punishment in the criminal law. Quite contrary to the idea of rehabilitation and distinct from the utilitarian purposes of restraint and deterrence, the purpose of retribution is actively to injure criminal offenders, ideally in proportion with their injuries to society, and so expiate them of guilt.

Why Is Retribution Used? The impulse to do harm to someone who does harm to you is older than human society, older than the human race itself (go to the zoo and watch the monkey cage for a demonstration.) It's also one of the most powerful human impulses — so powerful that at times it can overwhelm all else. One of the hallmarks of civilization is to relinquish the personal right to act on this impulse, and transfer responsibility for retribution to some governing body that acts, presumably, on behalf of society entire. When society executes retribution on criminals by means of fines, incarceration or death, these punishments are a social expression of the personal vengeance the criminal's victims feel, rationally confined (it is hoped) to what is best for society as a whole.

Of course there are more sophisticated ways of thinking about retribution, and it's a good idea to be familiar with them since a judge (and that other kind of judge, the criminal law professor) is unlikely to accept "because it's a natural impulse" as justification for retribution in punishment. And with good reason.

Is Retribution Ethical? While "it's natural" tends not to carry much weight in the criminal law, "it's morally right" can. Moral feelings and convictions are considered, even by the criminal law, to be some of the most powerful and binding expressions of our humanity. In binding criminal trial juries to restrict guilty verdicts to situations of the highest certainty, "beyond a reasonable doubt" is also often described as "to a moral certainty." It is to their moral feelings of what is truly right that jury members are asked to look before delivering a verdict. It's perhaps not too much of a stretch, then, to argue that it's morally right to make criminals suffer as their victims have suffered, if that's the way one's moral certainty points.

No matter what one's moral feelings are about inflicting deliberate harm on a human being, the majority of the U.S. citizenry still holds that it's right to exact retribution on criminal offenders, sometimes even to the point of death. This is almost certainly true of the majority of victims, and their loved ones, for whom equanimity becomes more and more difficult depending on the severity of the crime. What rape victim does not wish to see her attacker suffer? What parent does not hate the one who killed their child? The outrage that would result from leaving these passions for revenge unsatisfied might be seen as a dramatic failure of the entire criminal justice system. It's a good argument for retributive justice, then, that in this world public vengeance is necessary in order to avoid the chaos ensuing from individuals taking revenge into their own hands. And, until the moral certainty of a majority of society points towards compassion rather than revenge, this is the form the criminal law must take.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#204

This reads like the plot of a dystopian young adult sci-fi novel. Children who resist authority being diagnosed with a "behavioural disorder" and being forcibly given hormones by an evil doctor. Yet apparently this is the reality of modern society.

Reminds me of that time Berlin decided to deliberately house orphan children with convicted pedophiles, positing that the “attention” of the older male would be good for them.

> Berlin decided to deliberately house orphan children with convicted pedophiles, positing that the “attention” of the older male would be good for them.

Perpahps who was behind the board that made this decision was a group of (infiltrated) pedophiles

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#205

This doctor must lose their medical license for life. At best they are wildly incompetent, at worst they are maliciously inflicting harm upon a teen for personal or political reasons. Giving estrogen to men usually causes irreversible sterility for life . The doctor would have known this. The pharmacist would have known this. That they chose to proceed with the risk of sterilizing a boy without notifying his parents…

> men pursuing a change in gender are expected to sign their name or initial in the box at least ten times in a row in order to receive their prescription This is not true, at least not anywhere I've gotten Estradiol. Also, while I'm sure you intended to be respectful with your comment, most people getting this treatment see themselves as women who are changing their bodies to match their gender, not as men who are c…

I'm sure you intended to be respectful with your comment, but why are women changing their bodies to match their gender superior to men changing their bodies to match their gender?

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#206

Something doesn't add up with this story and I suspect it's going to come out in the lawsuit. If the doctor REALLY did want to lower testosterone levels in the 16 year old, there's a slew of medications that would have been more effective (Spiro, Lupron, Bica, etc). That amount of Estradiol isn't going to do much to lower T levels.

It's possible the doctor knows something the parents of the kid don't. You don't treat the symptom (high T levels) you treat the disease (the behavior disorder). It's possible there is something about the boy's medical history that made it seem like this treatment would work better for his body chemistry, perhaps.

It is possible that the doctor refused to talk not to ruin his case in court. But it is also possible he is incompetent and simply blew it.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#207

> Prior to that, Ouchi said, his client felt compelled to take the pills because he feared that disobeying Wang would have a detrimental effect on his pending criminal case. Makes you wonder what all kind of shady medical shit is done in jails and prisons.

I have seen a cop order a medic to give sedative to a human that was being choked by said cops for more than 10 minutes (he was basically already dead when they injected him). Search for Tony Timpa on Youtube if you want to see the video. And they were joking while killing him. And last but not least, they all kept their jobs. All humans can be bastards.

> And last but not least, they all kept their jobs

Police unions are some of the most powerful organizations. Not being able to fire bad actors is one of the worst parts of unions. I've never understood why there hasn't been a movement to reform them. Their coworkers get stuck with them too and bringing the whole unit down.

Instead we're always sold some nostalgic narrative of past golden eras of unions. Glossing over all the warts and cruft built up over time. We're long overdue for modernized unions.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#208
One thing not addressed here is that the surge of estrogen during puberty is what causes your long bones to fuse at the ends and you stop growing. It is possible that this young man's growth may have been permanently capped by this irresponsible behavior.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#209
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> men pursuing a change in gender are expected to sign their name or initial in the box at least ten times in a row in order to receive their prescription This is not true, at least not anywhere I've gotten Estradiol. Also, while I'm sure you intended to be respectful with your comment, most people getting this treatment see themselves as women who are changing their bodies to match their gender, not as men who are c…

How should one phrase that sentence without it becoming completely confusing? Would it be offensive to say "a person with an x and y chromosome"? Even though gender is only a social construct... for some reason, taking estrogen will have totally different effects on a person, depending on that gender.

Simply replacing “men” with “people” in that sentence would work fine.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#210
post #188
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Retribution should not be a part of any justice system. As retribution is not justice. Restitution, Rehabilitation and isolation should be the 3 goals of a true justice system. Victims should have a path to restitution when possible (some crimes this is not) Criminals should have a path to rehabilitation when possible (some crimes this is not) For when the other 2 fail, Isolation is the final step, isolation means we…

Retribution is needed to prevent vigilante justice and to cause fear to potential criminals. Remember the story of the drunk driver who killed several people in a crash [0]? He was "punished" by going to a club med like rehab facility where he was taught about the wrongs of his actions by horse back riding. Imagine if all drunk drivers were punished that way? 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethan_Couch

> He was "punished" by going to a club med like rehab facility where he was taught about the wrongs of his actions by horse back riding.

And you read that where?

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