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When your coworker does great work, tell their manager

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Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager

#291

Post by giantg2 »

ZephyrBlu wrote: post #276
giantg2 wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That might be the game at your company. The company I work for lies and plays mind games. I assume all large companies do - just look at other comments in this thread that suggest this.

Can you explain how the lies and mind games come into play at your company? It seems like most other people are talking about gaming metrics, not lying and playing games.

See the comment above your's about "unfair treatment".

At my company, your rating should be evaluated against the standard according to HR policy. I have been given a low rating in the past simply because somebody else got a high rating. Some departments require that the highest rating be 'balanced' by giving someone a lower rating, even when they don't deserve it. I know this because I have friends in management who have confirmed this.

The year after this, I filled the role of a tech lead as an intermediate developer. I was a key part of an enterprise-wide upgrade and recieved a commendation from the leader of that initiative. I was up for the highest rating, but did not get it. Why? Somebody else on the team was also doing an awesome job and they didn't have an FDN from the prior year. Policy states that only the current year should be part of the rating. My manager even said they believed that I "...deserved a distinguished rating, but [they] couldn't get it". Not to mention, can you imagine giving two out of ten employees an FDN to balance out two distinguished?

I left that team for a new team. On this team I got an average rating, but 12% of my target bonus (we are a pay for performance shop). Why so low? Because I took parental leave and my point count wasn't as high as others'. HR policy forbids point comparisons and also forbids any negative impact from taking parental leave. This team also tried to state that my work as an Application Security Champion for the system was not to be counted as part of my job, but as a supplemental role. Policy stated that it should be considered part of my job. I filled this role for six teams across two departments and received very positive feedback from two individuals that I interacted within the security subdivision.

These are probably half of the major issues which impacted my monetary, promotion, or rating outcomes.

As for head games, they play too many to list. One very memorable one is how I was told by my manager that some people only have the potential to be an intermediate developer, but later being told that if I stay in that position too long they will try to get rid of me because if you stay in that position for too long it shows you don't have any potential.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager

#292

Post by e40 »

bllguo wrote: post #283
jedberg wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what I loved about working at Netflix. We didn't have performance reviews. It was assumed that your performance was good to excellent, otherwise you wouldn't be working there anymore. You had a constant feedback loop with your manager on performance, but nothing was ever formal. Raises were completely divorced from any performance assessment. You were paid whatever they thought the max was for your skillset,…

So when people say companies are afraid of hiring false positives because it's costly to get rid of them - it's their internal corporate culture that is to blame for firing being expensive in the first place? Rather than some overarching legal complications?

The conventional wisdom in SV is that it's really hard to fire people. It's been my experience, too. I've worked with lawyers numerous times to fire people and it was always way more complex than I wanted. The problem is there are so many protected classes and once someone is in one, in CA, it makes it hard to just fire them, unless you have documented very precisely why you are firing them. And that is very taxing on everyone.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager

#293

Post by mementomori »

jabroni_salad wrote: post #76
ping_pong wrote: post #17

This is the biggest problem with stack ranking software engineers, the practice I had to endure while at a well known software company. All it does is create a zero-sum game, so I have no incentive to compliment anyone else. I needed to make sure that my rank was as high as I could make it, which really sucked during performance time. It was very stressful, even though I was a high performer, because it didn't foster…

It is easy to see zero-sum as noncooperative but in reality there is more than one winner. In fact, the number of losers is relatively small. One thing you can do to ensure your own position is to find some people you like and trade feedback with them. Everyone not included in the deal will have less feedback and you will be slightly advantaged over them.

That sounds like a good strategy: form an inner circle of peers that don't have conflict of interest (preferably not sharing the same supervisor, etc.) and being vulnerable with selective people should be helpful for fine-tuning strategy, and if not, at least generate a little social power. Previously, I had the tendency to isolate and not open up to anybody, to my own detriment.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager

#294

Post by fblp »

price wrote: post #86
fblp wrote: post #47

I feel like the main point should be "if your coworker does great work, tell them". Be curious, see if they have feedback through you, see how they'd like to be recognized. That step is often missed. People are often resistant to providing direct feedback - yet that is also how the strongest bonds are made. The more a manager acts as an intermediary, the less direct emotional (and consequently professional) relations…

You may not have read the article. It says to tell the coworker first. There is no question of a manager acting as an intermediary. The point of telling the manager is to help the coworker get their next raise or promotion, not for the manager to be the one to tell them.

Hey thank you I could have been more clear, intermediary is the wrong word and thank you for showing me that. I did read the article, and I can't see where it says "tell them". I do see the bold heading "ask if it’s ok first".

"Hey is it ok if I tell your manager you're doing a great job?" Is a lot more indirect than "Hey, I think you're doing a great job" and pausing for a response and having a conversation about it.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager

#295

Post by holidayacct »

I would be careful abour this one, some managers do everything they can to get rid of exemplary employees. If you're going to this make it as public as possible and make sure you have sound reasoning for why you are singing the praises of your co-worker. Include managers as close to the top of the organization as possible as well.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager

#296

Post by giantg2 »

perl4ever wrote: post #281
giantg2 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in my 30 with a family and find that I am much slower at learning new stacks now. I was a FileNet developer and then a Neoxam developer. There aren't many opportunities for me. I'm also just tired of the bullshit and and mind games that management plays. My current plan is to gamble in the stock market and 'retire' whenever I can't take it anymore or get fired. I would love to retire to run a small farm and/or wo…

If you don't like the industry you're in, programming culture, or the software stack you're used to, one way to break out of it is to get a low level office job in the sort of place you want to work and figure out how to solve problems with technology among people who don't normally have developers at their beck and call. This is also, I think, how you find a job that is very stable and secure - focusing first and fo…

Thanks! I've sort of considered moving into a business role and becoming a business analyst. Seems like a huge pay cut (that I can't afford) and years of wasted effort.

I actually have a business administration minor and trade options and equities, so I have a better understanding of finance and the business than most people I work with in IT. I work for a large financial company and my previous team was amazed that I passed my CFA Foundations class without studying (it's not difficult like the CFA level 2 or anything).

Maybe I'll reconsider becoming a business person.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager

#297

Post by discordance »

stuxnet79 wrote: post #232
jedberg wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and the ex-employee will never benefit either from supporting it. Like I said, even when you get fired, you still have stock options. So you do in fact benefit by helping the company when you're leaving. > The bond to co-workers at a former workplace is strange and tenuous - actually it goes the other way around, they reach out to you when they want to improve their situation. Let them ask you when they want out, t…

> Whatever happened to "we're all in this together"? Because we are not in this together. I like working in collaborative environments but after switching jobs more times than I can count I've become more cynical. - Co-workers are not your friends. - HR is not your friend. - Management is not your friend. It's a business relationship and in the eyes of the corporate structure you are just a fungible resource being co…

That sounds like a pretty horrible existence. I often spend more time with my colleagues than my family, and luckily I have formed great friendships with them. I care about them and vice versa. This contributes greatly to my quality of life.

Luckily we all have decent jobs that we enjoy that presents interesting challenges, and earn a decent amount too.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager

#298

Post by giantg2 »

thinnerlizzy wrote: post #208
cookienapper wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dilemma is this... "Ignorance is bliss" - You can't be worried/stressed about problems you don't know... What if you're consistently doing good work but have zero visibility? Then years down the road, you notice a trend of people around you getting promotions/raises/bounses more often than you? The same people that slack off & lack integrity; to name a few. As a human being with emotions... can you honestly say y…

I have this problem myself. I've gotten around it in the past by taking roles where the visibility is already baked into it, but I've never really solved the root problem. Now I'm a mostly anonymous, invisible contractor at a FAANG, and I don't know that there's a way break through that even for those most determined.

Thanks! Maybe I'll reconsider becoming a chief of staff.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager

#299

Post by da39a3ee »

It's a good thing to do. I don't agree with the first point about asking first. Ask if you like; if not don't ask. It's up to you. I'm afraid that yet again I put this down to the modern cultural schism among people who would describe themselves as liberals, with those on the progressive left adopting extremes of sensitivity that I find over the top. Specifically, I disagree with her points as follows:

1. Giving someone a compliment that’s not in line with their current goals.

Try to judge that yourself. But your coworker has no control over what others say; one of the risks in life, somewhere fairly low down in a list with many elements, is the risk that a coworker will compliment you for something that's not in line with your goals. Deal with it.

2. Giving someone the wrong “level” of compliment. For example, if they’re a very senior engineer and you say something like “PERSON did SIMPLE_ROUTINE_TASK really well!”

That will make you look silly, not them.

3. If your coworker was supposed to be focusing on a specific project, and you’re complimenting them for helping with something totally unrelated, their manager might think that they’re not focusing on their “real” work.

Make it one of your aims to have the sense to get that right.

4.Some people have terrible managers (for example, maybe the manager will feel threatened by your coworker excelling)

Make it one of your aims to have the sense to get that right.

5. Some people just don’t like being called out in that way, and are happy with the level of recognition they’re getting!

Bad luck; they don't control what others do.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager

#300

Post by discordance »

strulovich wrote: post #93
ping_pong wrote: post #17

This is the biggest problem with stack ranking software engineers, the practice I had to endure while at a well known software company. All it does is create a zero-sum game, so I have no incentive to compliment anyone else. I needed to make sure that my rank was as high as I could make it, which really sucked during performance time. It was very stressful, even though I was a high performer, because it didn't foster…

I've been working at Facebook for a while now, and I think the environment is competitive, and you do need to shine in front of endless talent, but doing so doesn't mean numbers. Sadly, many people who don't do well take their feedback to mean that they need more code commits or comments. Some of them might even succeed at gaming the system for a short while due to a bad manager. The truth from my experience is that…

By meaningful impact, do you mean how many users you convinced into clicking ads?

Or perhaps it was meaningful to create a tool that was used to monitor and manipulate millions of people to vote In a particular way?

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