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Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

latimes.com

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Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#151

Post by ashleyn »

ed25519FUUU wrote: post #78

> “Estrogen is not a treatment for ODD. I can’t be more emphatic about that,” McGough said. “You won’t find a reference anywhere that supports the use of estrogen for ODD.” Well certainly the doctor got this theory from someplace. They believed this young man would be better behaved if he had less testosterone and more estrogen, and went ahead with a treatment against scientific evidence (and ethics quite frankly). S…

There is no "theory". This is a sickening attempt at using a farcical medical diagnosis to ruin the entire life of a prisoner, even worse, a youth prisoner. History is littered with examples of lobotomies and chemical pacifiers being used to control "oppositional defiant" prisoners.

A doctor with medical credentials would know far better than anyone else, the foundational and fundamental damage done to someone with induced gender dysphoria, the practical effect of giving an ordinary man estrogen. This is psychopathic behaviour that has become all too routine in our national prison complex.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#152

Post by floatingatoll »

Twixes wrote: post #147
floatingatoll wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Testosterone carries a significant risk of liver damage — even if it's injected. Estrogen doesn't, ingested or otherwise.

That's interesting. Why the difference?

I'm not sure if science knows why yet. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3897047/ may be a good starting point, but IANAYD etc.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#153

Post by ashleyn »

Damorian wrote: post #149
ed25519FUUU wrote: post #78

> “Estrogen is not a treatment for ODD. I can’t be more emphatic about that,” McGough said. “You won’t find a reference anywhere that supports the use of estrogen for ODD.” Well certainly the doctor got this theory from someplace. They believed this young man would be better behaved if he had less testosterone and more estrogen, and went ahead with a treatment against scientific evidence (and ethics quite frankly). S…

Not to defend the doctor, but common sense? Sex hormones obviously have a huge effect on behavior, and anyone who has interacted with both men and women can see these effects. I'll refer you to the following study to answer your question about "non-science based theories and treatments": https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094

Not that I think "oppositional defiant disorder" is even a sound classification to begin with, but the lawyer's assertion that estrogen is not an accepted or common treatment for males with ODD is spot on. This was done solely with the intent to harm, by offending a deep and fundamental aspect of the person in question.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#154

Post by bzb3 »

ed25519FUUU wrote: post #78

> “Estrogen is not a treatment for ODD. I can’t be more emphatic about that,” McGough said. “You won’t find a reference anywhere that supports the use of estrogen for ODD.” Well certainly the doctor got this theory from someplace. They believed this young man would be better behaved if he had less testosterone and more estrogen, and went ahead with a treatment against scientific evidence (and ethics quite frankly). S…

It certainly worked, no? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23864426

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#155

Post by hexo »

dang wrote: post #121
hexo wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(deleting because of not funny unwise comment)

If you post like this here again we will ban you. Adding a nationalistic flamewar to what is already a gender flamewar is either arson or criminal negligence. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I am sorry about that. It haven't been thought in a 'nationalistic flamewar' sense or anything like that, text didnt really carry it. So again, sorry.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#156

Post by catalogia »

rubber_duck wrote: post #142
catalogia wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (in fact it sounds just as likely that the doctor was experimenting) I can think of another prison "doctor" who's known for "experimenting" on unwilling victims. Claiming to be doing experiments, yet without any hint of scientific rigor. If the claims made in the article are true, this guy belongs in prison no matter his excuse. Whether or not an ideological motivation can be proven or ruled out is completely irrel…

I should have put "experimenting" in quotes - just saying there is no evidence this is based on gender ideology so insinuating it is also spinning this in to ideological terms.

> just saying there is no evidence this is based on gender ideology

I agree with that. I think it was probably motivated by petty vindictiveness. I suspect most violence inflected by prison staff against prisoners is.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#157

Post by coronadisaster »

non-entity wrote: post #8

> Prior to that, Ouchi said, his client felt compelled to take the pills because he feared that disobeying Wang would have a detrimental effect on his pending criminal case. Makes you wonder what all kind of shady medical shit is done in jails and prisons.

I have seen a cop order a medic to give sedative to a human that was being choked by said cops for more than 10 minutes (he was basically already dead when they injected him). Search for Tony Timpa on Youtube if you want to see the video. And they were joking while killing him. And last but not least, they all kept their jobs. All humans can be bastards.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#158

Post by auganov »

ed25519FUUU wrote: post #78

> “Estrogen is not a treatment for ODD. I can’t be more emphatic about that,” McGough said. “You won’t find a reference anywhere that supports the use of estrogen for ODD.” Well certainly the doctor got this theory from someplace. They believed this young man would be better behaved if he had less testosterone and more estrogen, and went ahead with a treatment against scientific evidence (and ethics quite frankly). S…

> and went ahead with a treatment against scientific evidence

Despite a lack of scientific evidence not against. Don't think this has been tested and disproved in a scientific manner. And for ethical reasons probably won't be.

A relationship between male hormones and aggressive behavior while sometimes questioned is generally well supported. Yes that's not ODD but one can easily see the train of thought here.

What the doctor did is obviously very unethical and wrong (if the story is true)

But it certainly doesn't seem like a random out-of-nowhere idea to me.

Seems equally likely to me that the doctor was unethically treating based off own untested hunches as it is that it was a purely sadistic action.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#159

Post by totony »

tyho wrote: post #128
TomJansen wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is horrible and no, from a utilitarian perspective this does not make sense. You are basically argueing for chemical castration. This is exactly the kind of medicalization attitude which is very dangerous. The correct way isn't pumping our youth full with hormones or other chemicals, but giving them sufficient therapy and care and by ensuring that their environment in jail accommodates for a safe return int…

Just to be abundantly clear I think this is a terrible idea. But I'd like to see it dispassionately debated on its merits. One could make the argument that "sufficient therapy" is reminiscent of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. I do not know of any methods that can reliably work with the most violent of offenders. Chemical castration is evil, but so is life imprisonment. Which is lesser? Does it matter if it were a ch…

Why would you favor chemical alterations instead of simply changing the laws so this large portion of the population doesn't feel ostracized?

I'm not sure the current trend of labeling a lot of things as deficiencies is healthy for society. ADD, ODD, all that stuff should not be "treated" as much as it is today. Society should shape around how people are and not vice-versa.

We're at a point where having testosterone is starting to be seen as a problem which could be remediated by chemical castration for some people, and this is truly disturbing.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#160

Post by [deleted] »

OminousWeapons wrote: post #99
ed25519FUUU wrote: post #78

> “Estrogen is not a treatment for ODD. I can’t be more emphatic about that,” McGough said. “You won’t find a reference anywhere that supports the use of estrogen for ODD.” Well certainly the doctor got this theory from someplace. They believed this young man would be better behaved if he had less testosterone and more estrogen, and went ahead with a treatment against scientific evidence (and ethics quite frankly). S…

Probably many, but that's not really the problem. We want people to be developing and appropriately testing theories. What we don't want is: * Treating people against their will outside of specific extreme circumstances which this was not one of * Coercing vulnerable populations into treatment * Concealing treatment plans from guardians * Treating in a manner that is not in line with evidence based practice * Treatin…

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