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Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

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Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#61

Post by pb7 »

bonestormii_ wrote: post #50
prepend wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Start with the assumption that people need to be able to afford a place to live, and that a full time job should be able to achieve that. Do you agree? For me, it’s the definition of a minimum place to live. When I was young, I had roommates. I don’t think every working person should be able to afford a 1 bedroom apartment. There are multi family dwellings, studios, boarding rooms, etc. If I’m by myself and making…

> When I was young, I had roommates. I don’t think every working person should be able to afford a 1 bedroom apartment. Not everyone working minimum wage is doing it "when they were young." Do you really think it's a good objective for a 55 year old cook for a non-profit organization to be living with room mates? Would you want that? The solution is there if you are willing to reduce the wealth generated by investmen…

> Do you really think it's a good objective for a 55 year old cook for a non-profit organization to be living with room mates? Would you want that?

This, like many others, does not sound like a job that warrants minimum wage so no.

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#62

Post by scarface74 »

rayiner wrote: post #48
vharuck wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Is minimum wage workers affording an average 1-2 bedroom apartment with no other householders a goal we have set? There's a very good chance there are people whose quality of life would be drastically diminished if they had to share an apartment. Off the top of my head, those with embarrassing or inconvenient medical issues, single parents, people who always feel some level of stress around other people (there are a…

Doesn’t it make sense to set the floors based on the typical person, and accommodate other people in personalized ways? For example, the vast majority of low wage workers are not parents. If we want to set a floor for parents, we can have housing subsidies for families with children. Isn’t that better and more efficient?

We already have a floor for parents - the EITC. We have the mechanism in place already. Just not the political will to raise it.

Historically, the EITC has been supported by both Republican and Democratic administrations.

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#63

Post by black_puppydog »

rayiner wrote: post #8

Is minimum wage workers affording an average 1-2 bedroom apartment with no other householders a goal we have set? The French minimum wage is 1,521 euro per month. 30% of that is 456 euros, or about $513. According to the underlying study, the average 1BR in Alabama is $665. Is housing in France, on average, really that much cheaper than Alabama? I don’t think these abstract targets are very helpful. According to the…

Paris is expensive, but I've rented studio apartments here in Grenoble, France, for about 450eur, yes. Given, Grenoble is nothing of not a small town compared to Paris. But those apartments were also in the very heart of the city, one was directly at the river with a panorama view of the alps.

edit since these details matter here: two apartments in question. One was a 1R without, the other a Studio with amazing view. Both were very pleasant, central, and I could have found cheaper had I been willing to not have them that central. /edit

So yeah there are much cheaper places than the US. German rents tend to be cheaper still, with higher wages.

That all being said, calling out the people at the very bottom for their lavish lifestyles / demands seems a bit disconnected from the economic realities at the moment...

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#64

Post by throwaway53457 »

flukus wrote: post #40
rayiner wrote: post #8

Is minimum wage workers affording an average 1-2 bedroom apartment with no other householders a goal we have set? The French minimum wage is 1,521 euro per month. 30% of that is 456 euros, or about $513. According to the underlying study, the average 1BR in Alabama is $665. Is housing in France, on average, really that much cheaper than Alabama? I don’t think these abstract targets are very helpful. According to the…

> Is minimum wage workers affording an average 1-2 bedroom apartment with no other householders a goal we have set? It's not a goal we set but it's one we mostly achieved none the less, depending on your specific area and minimum wage. A blue collar (minimum - low wage) worker used to be able buy a house and raise a family on a single income. People are poorer than they were decades ago, at least where it counts.

This is likely one of the unintended side effects of 1) women entering the workforce 2) higher retirement age. With double the supply, it meant you could no longer raise a family on a single income, because the money is shared between more people.

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#65

Post by scarface74 »

fbanon9876 wrote: post #21
tathougies wrote: post #6

Minimum wage workers should mainly be teenagers, young single people, and other dependents who don't need to live alone or for a family, and for whom minimum wage makes sense while they advance in careers. I honestly don't care if minimum wage means you can afford rent. I'm most interested in what percentage of those with dependents are working minimum wage jobs and what percentage of those that started out with mini…

Australia does something interesting - minimum wage scales with how old the person is. Say it's $15/hr for 18 year olds; 19 year olds get $16 as a minimum, and so forth. Curious what you think about that idea.

Why wouldn’t that cause someone to discriminate against an older person?

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#66

Post by caconym_ »

centimeter wrote: post #38
standardUser wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at it from the other direction. Is working 40 hours per week but not being able to afford a 1 or 2 bedroom apartment a goal we want to set? If so, we have achieved it! I think most of us like the idea that if you put in 40 hours of work every week, regardless of the specific job, you are able to afford a basic standard of living.

Not all 40-hour-a-week jobs are valuable enough to support a high adult standard of living. If adults are still doing those jobs, it’s not a problem with the jobs.

Where do you believe the problem lies?

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#67

Post by sanderjd »

rayiner wrote: post #16
standardUser wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at it from the other direction. Is working 40 hours per week but not being able to afford a 1 or 2 bedroom apartment a goal we want to set? If so, we have achieved it! I think most of us like the idea that if you put in 40 hours of work every week, regardless of the specific job, you are able to afford a basic standard of living.

You’re begging the question. Is having your own 1BR apartment a “basic standard of living”? When did we decide that? Is that a goal other developed countries have set and achieved? Those are the pertinent questions, not what ideas “we like.” According to the study, that standard would require a $30-40 minimum wage in places like New York. Is that something any country has done?

Your argument here seems very circular to me.

You ask "when did we decide that?". That implies that there is some discrete point in time in the past when societal decisions are made. But that's not how societies work, not how politics work. The way it works is that we are continuously "deciding" things like this, through conversations like the one here, and articles like the one we're talking about. It doesn't make sense to say, "this article is reaching for abstract targets that we haven't decided on", because there is no decision point in the past like that, we're discussing what we want right now, in this moment, and the article is part of that discussion.

You claim that ideas "we like" are not what is pertinent. But that's also not the way societies and politics work. If we as a society decide that this is a good thing to strive for, that "we like" the idea, we can do that. We can decide we want to do that and discuss it and brainstorm ways to achieve it. Looking at what other countries have done is definitely an interesting input in that discussion, but it certainly isn't the only thing that is pertinent.

I think you should just say "I am unconvinced that this should be a goal we have as a society". You seem to be trying to appeal to some larger power, some discrete ledger of things we have decided on, but really I think what you're saying is that you are personally skeptical of this, and perhaps that you believe many others in the society are skeptical of it. Which is cool (I may even agree with that, I'm not sure yet), but it would be more clear to just say that.

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#68

Post by worik »

centimeter wrote: post #38
standardUser wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at it from the other direction. Is working 40 hours per week but not being able to afford a 1 or 2 bedroom apartment a goal we want to set? If so, we have achieved it! I think most of us like the idea that if you put in 40 hours of work every week, regardless of the specific job, you are able to afford a basic standard of living.

Not all 40-hour-a-week jobs are valuable enough to support a high adult standard of living. If adults are still doing those jobs, it’s not a problem with the jobs.

No. It is a problem with the pay.

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#69

Post by worik »

black_puppydog wrote: post #63
rayiner wrote: post #8

Is minimum wage workers affording an average 1-2 bedroom apartment with no other householders a goal we have set? The French minimum wage is 1,521 euro per month. 30% of that is 456 euros, or about $513. According to the underlying study, the average 1BR in Alabama is $665. Is housing in France, on average, really that much cheaper than Alabama? I don’t think these abstract targets are very helpful. According to the…

Paris is expensive, but I've rented studio apartments here in Grenoble, France, for about 450eur, yes. Given, Grenoble is nothing of not a small town compared to Paris. But those apartments were also in the very heart of the city, one was directly at the river with a panorama view of the alps. edit since these details matter here: two apartments in question. One was a 1R without, the other a Studio with amazing view.…

"calling out the people at the very bottom for their lavish lifestyles / demands"

A room of one's own is a lavish demand? Yes.

Re: Minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any U.S. state

#70

Post by worik »

SECProto wrote: post #58
rayiner wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re begging the question. Is having your own 1BR apartment a “basic standard of living”? When did we decide that? Is that a goal other developed countries have set and achieved? Those are the pertinent questions, not what ideas “we like.” According to the study, that standard would require a $30-40 minimum wage in places like New York. Is that something any country has done?

Since local zoning laws effectively rule out boarding houses (or other affordable living spaces) in most of North America, 1BR is essentially the entry level in most jurisdictions.

Hence minimum wage workers are homeless
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