Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress • Hacker News Board

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#301

Post by seesawtron » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 8:30 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #208

seesawtron wrote: post #106

It reminds me of what Aldous Huxley wrote (about people in distress): “The real hopeless victims of mental illness are to be found among those who appear to be most normal. "Many of them are normal because they are so well adjusted to our mode of existence, because their human voice has been silenced so early in their lives, that they do not even struggle or suffer or develop symptoms as the neurotic does." They are…

A lot of philosophers have had similar (but different) takes on this phenomenon over time. Plato: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_forms https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-metaphysics/ Jiddu Krishnamurti: https://charleseisenstein.org/video/it-is-no-measure-of-heal... https://www.wildmind.org/blogs/quote-of-the-month/krishnamur... Terence McKenna: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7391624-we-have-gone-sic…

Quoting Ernest Becker from his "The Denial of Death" which is again derived in a way from Plato's Ideas/Forms: "In man a working level of narcissism is inseparable from self-esteem, from a basic sense of self-worth. His sense of self-worth is constituted symbolically, his cherished narcissism feeds on symbols, on an abstract idea of his own worth, an idea composed of words, sounds and images, in the air, in the mind, on paper."

> Can we point to any other historic examples of people being deliberately (mis)led, by coordinated and powerful actors, to believe certain things to be true, that are not actually true?

I think the whole Public Relations (aka propaganda) movement would be an example of this delibrately misleading people to believe in certain things and force them act accordingly. The modern pioneer of this would be Edward Bernays [0] how he profited the industry by convincing people that they need to buy material things (for example, new fashionable clothes) to express their individuality or helping the Tobacco industry to get rid of the taboo of smoking among women.

But I would argue that this idea of misleading masses goes back in history. I would go out on a limb here but isn't the whole idea of Church based on fear of hell in order to make people act according to "Christian" values to seek eternal heaven and save their soul? Seems like delibrating misleading people in a coordinated manner to believe in ideas that are not actually proven to be true.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnPmg0R1M04

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#302

Post by LouisSayers » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 8:32 PM UTC

bradlys wrote: post #222

mint2 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also like the Facebook effect. For the most part, people post only the best photos, so we only see their best 10%. Yet it’s easy to forget that and compare that to all our photos/experiences even though it’s not apples to apples. And out of 100 friends, if 5-10 post something cool it’s easy to overlook that the other 90-95 didn’t. fB is but an example. These effects happen more or less with everything.

The culture in America shames those who post upsetting things or express those feelings. It’s a whole thing where you have to always be happy and “positive”. I’ve rebelled against this for a long time. I post happy things here and there but since my life isn’t particularly happy, I post the more upsetting things more frequently and express those feelings in real life. I like to think I’m adding balance but I know I’m…

> The culture in America shames those who post upsetting things or express those feelings.

Yeah, because it’s bloody depressing.

You get what your mind focuses on and if people actively look for depressing topics it’s no wonder they’re all doom and gloom.

That’s why people don’t want to hear it - because it affects your psychology.

I will actively run from people who lead negative lives, that complain about things but never lift a finger to make anything better. I refuse to be sucked into their pits of despair because I know there is good in the world, and I want to be part of that, focus my mind and attention and energy on leaving things slightly better than when I found it.

I will try to help ppl where I can but the truth is a lot of people are lazy and don’t want to change. So I leave them with my thoughts and know that I have done my piece.

I’m not saying this is directly attributable to your experience, simply relaying the way I feel to give you insight into perhaps a different mindset and way of seeing things.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#303

Post by olyjohn » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 8:33 PM UTC

mjayhn wrote: post #114

wincy wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Initially I suspected carbon monoxide poisoning, because it correlated to when I’d come home. The symptoms were that bad. Turns out it was the dinner I was cooking every night for the family, I’d sit down to relax and eat and just a few minutes after eating asparagus feel completely bonkers. I went to the emergency room, they gave me a few Xanax; then the GP who wanted to prescribe me Lexapro and referred me to a Gas…

Have you been allergy tested? I found out last year (midway into my 30s) that I'm actually allergic to half the foods my mom used to prepare for me. Like tomatoes/nightshade fruits. I would always get itchy, confused and generally feel inflamed and terrible and my mom made me tons and tons of spaghetti as a kid. I had constant GI issues in school and did pretty poorly, bad memory, etc. Prior to allergy testing I got…

Aren't there a lot of pseudoscience-based food allergy tests out there? I've seen ones where you drop blood onto paper cards and mail them in. Somehow they test your old dead blood and then they send back a list of foods and tell you if you're allergic to them... Seems fishy to me, and I could not find how it worked or anything that these tests are legit. Every other type of allergy that causes inflammation in the body is done live, on your body with a test where they prick your skin. But I've never heard of this being done with food. Where did you end up getting your food allergy test done?

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#304

Post by bobbiechen » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 8:44 PM UTC

DavidVoid wrote: post #164

seesawtron wrote: post #106

It reminds me of what Aldous Huxley wrote (about people in distress): “The real hopeless victims of mental illness are to be found among those who appear to be most normal. "Many of them are normal because they are so well adjusted to our mode of existence, because their human voice has been silenced so early in their lives, that they do not even struggle or suffer or develop symptoms as the neurotic does." They are…

Reminds me of what Martin Luther King, Jr., had to say about the word "maladjusted" [1]. “You who are in the field of psychology have given us a great word. It is the word maladjusted. This word is probably used more than any other word in psychology. It is a good word; certainly it is good that in dealing with what the word implies you are declaring that destructive maladjustment should be destroyed. You are saying…

And from George Bernard Shaw:

“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#305

Post by jac241 » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 8:45 PM UTC

dpweb wrote: post #227

seesawtron wrote: post #106

It reminds me of what Aldous Huxley wrote (about people in distress): “The real hopeless victims of mental illness are to be found among those who appear to be most normal. "Many of them are normal because they are so well adjusted to our mode of existence, because their human voice has been silenced so early in their lives, that they do not even struggle or suffer or develop symptoms as the neurotic does." They are…

Also, what is the appropriate threshold where we call it mental illness. The article, Jenna's boyfriend cheated. She's seriously depressed. That ain't illness, it's normal. That doctor is a quack. I feel part of the problem is the expectation that humans are supposed to be happy. Happy is just a state of mind, not necessarily our default state. Depression and mental pain have their uses. They alert us, something is w…

That's textbook major depressive disorder. How long would you let Jenna suffer out of principle? One month was too short a time for you, so what a year, two? She's not attending classes, crying all the time, sleeping more than usual. Why would you let depression ruin her future when we have effective treatment with a favorable side effect profile (CBT + SSRIs)? It's not an either/or situation. Doctors definitely counsel to increase exercise and get outside when starting treatment for depression. I don't think your strategy is very compassionate at all.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#306

Post by elbrownos » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 8:47 PM UTC

tcj_phx wrote: post #75

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of that changed after going on Prozac. I don't know why, and I've heard from many others that Prozac was harmful to them. SSRIs are some of the most widely-used medications. Tens of millions of people in the United States alone use SSRIs regularly with good results. No medication is perfect, obviously, and at scale we're bound to see a percentage of people have negative experiences. The problem is that when ten…

When a patient's symptoms are treated instead of the cause, most people will have subpar results. The SSRI Lexapro [0] helped my girlfriend relapse on cocaine, before i met her. Cocaine is a much stronger anti-depressant than the SSRI's due to its effects as a Mono-Amine Oxidase Inhibitor [2] (1st generation anti-depressants). Eventually the professionals figured out she is a poor methylator, and can't convert folic…

What makes you think cocaine is an MAOI?

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#307

Post by ColanR » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 8:51 PM UTC

seesawtron wrote: post #299

starpilot wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The social critic and mathematician Ted Kaczynski said, "The concept of 'mental health' in our society is defined largely by the extent to which an individual behaves in accord with the needs of the system and does so without showing signs of stress ... Instead of removing the conditions that make people depressed, modern society gives them antidepressant drugs. In effect, antidepressants are a means of modifying an…

I like that you reference him solely as social critic and mathematician. I would recommend one should read his manifesto [0] to form their own opinion. Additionally you might also enjoy the Adam Curtis's documentary series [1]. [0] https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-Unabomber-Manifest... [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnPmg0R1M04

Ideas should be evaluated on their own merit, unbiased by anyone's view of their originator.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#308

Post by PaulHoule » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 8:51 PM UTC

danans wrote: post #278

PaulHoule wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If tigers were not somewhat dangerous it wouldn't be much harder than breeding housecats, except they are larger and eat more. Every so often they catch somebody breeding tigers in shockingly small cages. How can society not be "a cage" in some respects? How about the arguments from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization_and_Its_Disconten...

> How can society not be "a cage" in some respects? Calling it a cage is reductio ad absurdum. The presence of social norms does not invalidate the agency of humans or groups of humans in the way a cage does. Characterizing it as a cage is a strawman, often used by those who would simply like to destroy it and erect a "cage" of their own preference.

I qualified it with "in some respects". Everybody gets benefits from civilization but most people feel stressed at least some of the times because "you can't always get what you want.". In the state of nature you could blame nature (no food because of environment cycles) but in civilization you blame other people or institutions. (No food because your local government wants your ethnic group to die.)

Freud posits 'man vs civilization' as an unavoidable conflict because the alternative to civilization is having a 10 million person carrying capacity on this world.

That is very different from r.d laing, Thomas szatz and other l. Ron Hubbard antipsychotics who think schizophrenia is a choice.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#309

Post by jodrellblank » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 8:57 PM UTC

dpweb wrote: post #227

seesawtron wrote: post #106

It reminds me of what Aldous Huxley wrote (about people in distress): “The real hopeless victims of mental illness are to be found among those who appear to be most normal. "Many of them are normal because they are so well adjusted to our mode of existence, because their human voice has been silenced so early in their lives, that they do not even struggle or suffer or develop symptoms as the neurotic does." They are…

Also, what is the appropriate threshold where we call it mental illness. The article, Jenna's boyfriend cheated. She's seriously depressed. That ain't illness, it's normal. That doctor is a quack. I feel part of the problem is the expectation that humans are supposed to be happy. Happy is just a state of mind, not necessarily our default state. Depression and mental pain have their uses. They alert us, something is w…

> "We're destined to suffer, if for no other reason the horrific reality that we will all be annihilated one day. Everything beautiful in the world will be taken from us. Our existence will end. So happiness is not our default state, or even where we SHOULD get to. Why would it be?"

Why should those things make you suffer? Desire causes suffering, if you don't desire to live forever, then not living forever doesn't cause suffering. Reactions to events cause suffering, if you don't see yourself as the center of the world, if you don't see the world as a separate and spiteful active agency, then you don't see things being "taken from you". If you don't value only the beautiful things, then you don't suffer from your imbalanced views.

Why WOULDN'T happiness be your default state? There's nothing you can do which carries you beyond the grave, there's nothing you can build which changes anything, you can't remove bad things from the world, you can't change other people, there's no obligation to do anything, and no reason to be sad about unchangable facts.

It's the learned state that you are in a competition to maximise property and money, that fame matters, that being thin or rich or pretty defines your worth, that you are important and deserve everlasting healthy youthful life, that the world isn't good enough, that are not the default state and bring suffering.

> "That ain't illness, it's normal"

When everyone has cancer, cancer will stop being an illness?

> "but we conflate those people with others who are just very rightfully sad about the circumstances in their lives. Often these people (alcohol, food, drugs, phone) instead of making the difficult changes."

And? What's wrong with helping people who aren't ill? What's wrong with helping people make difficult changes? What's wrong with supporting people who will benefit from support, helping everyone climb as high as they can with teamwork, instead of behaving like insurance companies and looking for every loophole to get out of doing that?

[Edit: downvoter, you didn't even have time to read this between me clicking submit, then edit, before downvoting :rolleyes:]

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#310

Post by jac241 » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 8:58 PM UTC

mrkurt wrote: post #300

yomly wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally a doctor friend confirmed this same observation to me after doing a psychiatry rotation - they suggested that most people with depression were just sad but wanted a magic pill to cure the unpleasant emotion.

Depression isn't "sad". Depression _can_ be a function of the environment, but it's still not "sad". Sad is a healthy, appropriate emotion. Depression is a numbness that makes it difficult to even feel sadness.

Amen. Depression is a a feeling of worthless or loss of interest in things that is significant enough to negatively impact your life.