TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months • Hacker News Board

Re: TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months

#91

Post by kick » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 7:31 PM UTC

AsyncAwait wrote: post #86

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. US entry into WWII was mainly for reasons that had little to do with human rights. But the defeat of Nazi German and Imperialist Japan had huge, favorable results for human rights.

Back then the politics were a lot less polarized and you had sane domestic policy under FDR, these are different times. That was when U.S. understood that you can only attain so much by brute force.

Less polarized? Huey Long got shot for FDR to get in, and actual socialism was a thing in the United States. Assassination attempts were regularly made against union busters.

Re: TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months

#92

Post by sudosysgen » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 7:32 PM UTC

mclightning wrote: post #74

AsyncAwait wrote: post #64

All these things seem like desperate moves from a failing empire. I don't believe for a second the U.S. cares about human rights here. That doesn't mean I think the CCP is 'good', but 2 things can be true at the same time. EDIT: typo

US to care about human rights is not necessarily a precursor condition for this set of events to be eventually better for human rights.

Yes. But I don't think that giving more power to the US Empire will be better for human rights long term. The US and it's client states also kill millions of people for profit.

Re: TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months

#93

Post by FooBarWidget » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 7:34 PM UTC

yumraj wrote: post #26

sambull wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If foundations of geopolitics is anything real, then pitting the US vs China would be the ultimate best outcome. The book believes China is the true threat to Russia and "must, to the maximum degree possible, be dismantled". As secondary goal would be the disruption of the US which also has been propping China up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics#Con...

Interesting, had never thought from that angle, especially since Russia and China for most part seem chummy. But in reality, they are neighbors and China has (or is in the process of) replacing Russia as the #2 power. So, while US has a lot to be careful for, it does indeed make sense that Russia has a more immediate threat. If China becomes more powerful, it will start flexing muscle as the Russia-China border also,…

I don't think that theory is as true as you believe.

China ceded a whole lot of territory to Russia without too much of a fuss. The whole of Mongolia was part of Qing, and they gave that up. Dittobfor Vladivostok.

China's border disputes with India was created by the British, who just draw a line somewhere without consent. China offered to draw turn the Line of Actual Control into the official border, which means China would get about 30% of the land, but India rejected that offer, so now we are at a perpetual border conflict.

Re: TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months

#94

Post by AsyncAwait » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 7:35 PM UTC

3pt14159 wrote: post #84

AsyncAwait wrote: post #64

All these things seem like desperate moves from a failing empire. I don't believe for a second the U.S. cares about human rights here. That doesn't mean I think the CCP is 'good', but 2 things can be true at the same time. EDIT: typo

For things like this there isn't a "the U.S." there's groups of people, interest groups, political economy, political will, etc. If China were rapidly liberalizing and didn't have stains on their reputation like the HK protest lockdowns, minority subjugation, and horrible prison conditions it would be a lot harder to push any of these changes through. As it stands, democrats and republicans are both turning hawkish o…

When I say "the U.S.", I mean the current admin and associated groups.

It is fairly evident that the U.S. is worried about China putting it in a position where it's not as easy/effective to go around the world, exploit foreign natural resources under false pretenses and sanction "non-compliant" nations to the brink.

It has absolutely 0 to do with human rights and all to do with economic power.

As for Chinese domestic human rights, the thing is doing coups etc. as was done so many times in i.e. the Middle East and Latin America won't lead to a better outcome because a coup is a forceful, violent and sudden, unnatural event that requires forces usually as bad if not worse than the current regime to pull off and denies the chance for long-term institutions to develop that adopt naturally by increasing human rights, however slowly.

It's the same problem with introducing modern economic theory, manufacturing, technology to a nation that did not had that trickle in at least somewhat continually over a period of time. It's a shock to the system in a way that rarely leads to better long-term outcomes.

Re: TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months

#95

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 7:35 PM UTC

AsyncAwait wrote: post #86

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. US entry into WWII was mainly for reasons that had little to do with human rights. But the defeat of Nazi German and Imperialist Japan had huge, favorable results for human rights.

Back then the politics were a lot less polarized and you had sane domestic policy under FDR, these are different times. That was when U.S. understood that you can only attain so much by brute force.

> had sane domestic policy under FDR,

Is this the same FDR that tried to pack the US Supreme Court and interned over 100,000 Americans of Japanese decent in camps?

> That was when U.S. understood that you can only attain so much by brute force.

WWII was pretty much brute force all the way. Around the clock bombings of enemy cities and civilians. Firebombing Tokyo, nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And that was from the US side. The Soviet side had such things as massive artillery barages of cities, no step back rule where people with machine guns shot their own soldiers for not advancing fast enough.

Re: TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months

#96

Post by willis936 » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 7:36 PM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #90

3pt14159 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For things like this there isn't a "the U.S." there's groups of people, interest groups, political economy, political will, etc. If China were rapidly liberalizing and didn't have stains on their reputation like the HK protest lockdowns, minority subjugation, and horrible prison conditions it would be a lot harder to push any of these changes through. As it stands, democrats and republicans are both turning hawkish o…

But is it really? Were the people complaining about the war in Yemen or the atrocities of Saudi Arabia or the horrors of the Iraq War able to meaningfully change anything? Or is it the case that the only time that human rights actually enact change is when there is an underlying material interest, making them little more than a veneer?

There’s a value in quantity. Show me mass genocide happening in any of those other human rights violation hotspots.

Re: TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months

#97

Post by FooBarWidget » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 7:38 PM UTC

onepointsixC wrote: post #73

andy_ppp wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chinese need more reasons to invade Taiwan right :-/ Can someone please bring up and discuss with world leaders that we are potentially heading toward terrifying conflicts. I'm very concerned about nuclear war over things like this. I liked the world much better when we did our best to level the playing field (not always successfully) but which caused huge growth and prosperity for maybe billions of people. We ne…

This is an extremely naive point of view. The CCP is a revisionist, expansionist rising power that already has been actively committing genocide of Uyghurs. It has more territorial disputes than it has physical neighbors. They want this, and have been fighting for this all this time.

Dude, you should check the map of the Qing, compare it to the Republic of China (Taiwan), then compare it to the PRC.

They ceded a whole lot of land all over the place, peacefully, as part of negotiations. For example the whole of Mongolia was part of Qing. They are not as war mongering as you believe.

Re: TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months

#98

Post by shalmanese » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 7:38 PM UTC

christophilus wrote: post #66

What's to prevent China from re-branding Huawei, or something along those lines? Then, US / UK / Taiwanese companies could say: we're no longer dealing with Huawei. We're dealing with Uawei. It's different? China could do something like that indefinitely, as a workaround, no? Or, China could just have any number of new shell companies order TSMC parts, and then hand them over to Huawei.

That's exactly what got Huawei into this mess in the first place. The US placed sanctions on selling telecom equipment to Iran and Huawei went "We aren't selling telecom equipment to Iran, this totally unrelated company 'Skycom Technologies' is" who happen to be comprised of employees who still had Huawei email addresses.

Guess how well that turned out.

Re: TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months

#99

Post by mhroth » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 7:39 PM UTC

mcqueenjordan wrote: post #87

mclightning wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US to care about human rights is not necessarily a precursor condition for this set of events to be eventually better for human rights.

Exactly. I think Noam Chomsky said something along these lines: I cannot think of a case where a nation intervened in or influenced another country in a purely disinterested humanitarian fashion. That doesn't mean national interests cannot coincide with good outcomes, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt-GUAxmxdk

Re: TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months

#100

Post by bserge » Thu, Jul 16, 2020, 7:40 PM UTC

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #72

christophilus wrote: post #66

What's to prevent China from re-branding Huawei, or something along those lines? Then, US / UK / Taiwanese companies could say: we're no longer dealing with Huawei. We're dealing with Uawei. It's different? China could do something like that indefinitely, as a workaround, no? Or, China could just have any number of new shell companies order TSMC parts, and then hand them over to Huawei.

> Then, US / UK / Taiwanese companies could say: we're no longer dealing with Huawei. This is one of the big differences between laws and code, and many programmers get this confused. In code, intention does not matter. What code you write, is what the CPU executes. In law intention matters. If you came before a judge and pleaded innocent because Huawei changed their name to Uawei, the judge is going to laugh as they…

He's downvoted but he's got a point. What if it's not as simple as just changing their name? What if you dismantle Huawei and sell it off to "other" companies, operating independently and/or cooperating with each other?

At some point it would be extremely hard to say "this is still Huawei".

The US gov should've banned all major Chinese companies, because that seems like a big loophole to me. Even then it still seems like just a temporary measure.