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Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

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461–470 of 485 posts

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#461
post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you actually believe that? How much money will I get from 1 share? How much money would I have to invest before my fortunes actually rise with the real fortunes of any particular company?

That is the principle and it works. I know countless examples, yes, including me. Not happy with 1 share? Save more, buy more. Want cheaper shares? Found your own company and you’ll have infinite shares for free. You’ll have to make it successful afterwards, though, to raise each share's value up from 0. That’s what "They" did.

How out of touch with the world must you be to put out such statements...

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#462
post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For every story of entrepreneurial success, there are countless others of failures. The vast majority of people are not just too dumb to see the opportunities, as you have arrogance to imply. They are well aware of the risks, and can't afford to take them. Plus, an economy can't run on business founders alone. It requires workers that actually, you know, do the work, and who are willing to be paid for a less than tha…

Yeah, to succeed you first have to believe you CAN succeed. Plenty of limitations you’re so very sure about, but have you even ever TRIED?

So you really believe that everyone can become rich if they just put in the hard work? That's such a naive view that I don't even know where to start to debate it.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#463
post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the principle and it works. I know countless examples, yes, including me. Not happy with 1 share? Save more, buy more. Want cheaper shares? Found your own company and you’ll have infinite shares for free. You’ll have to make it successful afterwards, though, to raise each share's value up from 0. That’s what "They" did.

How out of touch with the world must you be to put out such statements...

It’s the mindset I operate under and it served me well. What is your belief system and how well did that work out for you?

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#464
post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, to succeed you first have to believe you CAN succeed. Plenty of limitations you’re so very sure about, but have you even ever TRIED?

So you really believe that everyone can become rich if they just put in the hard work? That's such a naive view that I don't even know where to start to debate it.

I never said that. Read again.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can the tax ever be worse than a sale? Even if the tax is 100% on the profits from a sale it would still contribute to economies of scale at the production end of things thereby subsidizing all other units in countries with more favourable tax rates and increasing the profits in those countries.

> How can the tax ever be worse than a sale? For one thing, sales taxes are on revenues rather than profits (because the entire price is profit to somebody, and otherwise you're giving incentive to corporate shell games again), and that means the tax could exceed the profit to the entity making the decision. Also, any non-zero profits aren't necessarily better than the alternative, because the alternative is to deplo…

[deleted]

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#466
post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For every story of entrepreneurial success, there are countless others of failures. The vast majority of people are not just too dumb to see the opportunities, as you have arrogance to imply. They are well aware of the risks, and can't afford to take them. Plus, an economy can't run on business founders alone. It requires workers that actually, you know, do the work, and who are willing to be paid for a less than tha…

Yeah, to succeed you first have to believe you CAN succeed. Plenty of limitations you’re so very sure about, but have you even ever TRIED?

This reminds of a joke about drawing an owl: you first draw 2 vertical ovals, slightly superimposed, one bigger, one smaller. Then you draw a triangle on the smaller oval. Then you draw the rest of the owl.

Sure, you can't succeed if you don't try. But you also can't succeed if you don't have anything to eat, and for the vast, vast majority of people, trying is likely to make that a real problem.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#467
post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How out of touch with the world must you be to put out such statements...

It’s the mindset I operate under and it served me well. What is your belief system and how well did that work out for you?

My belief is that not everyone has the same opportunities for a variety of reasons and even if something might work for me it might very well be impossible for others.

I also believe that it is our duty as society to make sure everyone can have a decent life even when not granted the same privileges others get for free.

Assuming everyone can put in the hard work and make it, you imply that everyone has or can learn "quickly" a markeatable skill, including the business acumen, the available free time and the mental/physical health required to succeed.

But the real issue is that even if everyone was able to try to get rich starting on an equally levelled field, our economic system can't allow everyone to succeed. We need poorer people to do employed jobs in order for their value produced in "excess" to be sent to shareholders and CEOs.

It just seems madness to me to have this global competition where the poor race against each other in order to be allowed to become one of the rich. We can do way better than this.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If so the only part of the comment you were replying to above that was "overturned" was the word "illegal". Just wanted to make that clear, since I'm one of the people who think that it's still immoral and should be illegal.

Well in a court of law, it is the letter of the law that matters, not how we feel. So it may be immoral but is not illegal.

Some countries including France and Germany have the concept of "Abuse of Rights" [0]. I don't know if it would apply in a case similar to Apple, but it can definitely apply when you're trying to find loopholes to not pay taxes.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_of_rights

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To address only a tiny sliver of that massively one-sided view of yours: At least in many European countries, publicly-funded universities train the scientific, engineering and managerial talent these corporations need.

Of course, the states take so many taxes from its citizens that most of them cannot afford private education or healthcare, they are forced to the monopolistic public services, which are usually more expensive than their private counterparts. I'm not arguing that the states don't give us anything in return for the massive taxes they force upon us, but that what the society as a whole gets in return is much less than…

I see health insurance on the same level as other health related services guaranteed by the society, coming out of your taxes. Sure, many people don't need health insurance right now, but many people don't need the fire department without having their house on fire, but they still accept that their taxes are funding the fire department.

As you said, these are "monopolistic public services", so for me it doesn't make sense not to have healthy people insured. The more healthy people are insured, the lower premiums are payed by everyone, and in case of crisis, no one gets left behind.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#470
post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My view is: - It makes sense for governments to provide healthcare, education, police, the military, welfare for the elderly/poor/disabled, basic infrastructure like electricity, water, etc. These things don't tend to work well when privatized, and humanity has advanced to the point where we have sufficient productivity/technological advances that we can (and should) provide these things for everyone - These things a…

"virtually no impact on the person or corporation" How do you conclude that? Come to my house and take away anything you think has no impact on me , how are you concluding that this has no impact on anything? This is all bad thinking. Apple is holding a cash Reserve with 250 billion dollar, and you seem to know why instead of distributing it to their shareholders they are stocking it. Similarly, you apparently know w…

You can look up economic studies on the marginal utility (satisfaction/benefit) of wealth for an individual, and it’s absolutely the consensus that it declines rapidly the more you have. Take $100,000 from a middle class person, and you have a massive negative impact on their life. Take $100,000 from a billionaire, and the impact is basically nothing. It’s similar with businesses - the more wealth they have, the less marginal utility they get from it. Take $1,000,000 from a small business, you bankrupt it, while it’s nothing but a rounding error for a large enterprise.

If you’re an anarchistic or libertarian, you won’t believe much in taxes at all, that’s fine. But if you believe the government is useful, then the funding/taxes must come from somewhere, and I believe progressive taxation is the best way to do this - the way to raise taxes with the most minimal impact on utility. Virtually all nations do this, for the poor-to-fairly-wealthy individuals and businesses. However, the insanely wealthy individuals and businesses wield their power to change laws, and pay insanely low tax rates, shifting the tax burden onto everyone else. This is the part that I consider unethical - the uber-wealthy and lawmakers teaming up for the benefit of the few at the cost of many.

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