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German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

mobile.reuters.com

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Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#611

Post by emn13 »

buran77 wrote: post #554
emn13 wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the parent poster is trying to make the point that it's unreasonable to ask people to pay attention. In any case the fault is most certainly not merely marketing, it's a fundamental design flaw. You cannot expect people to maintain constant attention when that attention almost never leads to anything; people simply aren't capable of that. That's also why similarly "boring" tasks are so failure prone (e.g. htt…

> In any case the fault is most certainly not merely marketing, it's a fundamental design flaw. I was actually referring to the ruling. The court did not take issue with the autopilot system, just with the way it's marketed. For the rest of your comment I agree and I implied something along the same lines. Tesla should have built a system that works to compensate for human failings, not take advantage of them to sell…

> > In any case the fault is most certainly not merely marketing, it's a fundamental design flaw.

> I was actually referring to the ruling. The court did not take issue with the autopilot system, just with the way it's marketed.

I meant the parent post you were replying to, i.e. what I think MereInterest meant when he said "If there is a human in the control loop, then it needs to take into account human limitations", to which you replied "I am honestly not sure how to interpret your comment but I'll try to respond. The fault is not with the AP."

I did not mean to imply you thought it was a fundamental design flaw - sorry!

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#612

Post by MereInterest »

emn13 wrote: post #609
richardwhiuk wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> public transport vehicles where lights sync to the vehicle This is a common rumour, but is there anywhere which actually implements this?

Where I live, they're even rain-sensitive, giving bikers priority in rainy conditions.

Wow. If you don't mind me asking, where is this? I live in a city that is considered relatively bike-friendly, but the timing of the lights is maximally bad for bikers, requiring us to stop at every light.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#613

Post by sjwright »

PunchTornado wrote: post #542
sjwright wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At L5 you can't "blame the driver" because there is no driver.

they'll blame the other driver, the roads, the passengers etc.

I can only respond to what you said, not an endless list.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#614

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #584
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not food companies' fault that the English word “fat” has multiple meanings and is the normal word for several of them.

You don't think they're intentionally using that word for precisely that reason?

But there's no other commonly-used word for it!

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#615

Post by singlow »

ianmobbs wrote: post #262
singlow wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did the company have when he bought it apart from a name?

They already had the Roadster, Musk just funded it.

In what way did they "have the Roadster" in February 2004, 6 months after the first two founders started the company and 9 months before it was named Tesla? At the point that Musk joined they were still working with a TZero converted to a lithium battery pack.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#616

Post by buran77 »

iggldiggl wrote: post #569
richardwhiuk wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> public transport vehicles where lights sync to the vehicle This is a common rumour, but is there anywhere which actually implements this?

Yes. (And I can also confirm the effect that at intersections where full public transport priority usually guarantees a green some drivers do react a bit... surprised on the rare occasion when it doesn't work for whatever reasons)

> the rare occasion when it doesn't work for whatever reasons

That's actually intentional (or at least I know for a fact that in some places it's by design). It keeps drivers alert and break the habit of just going ahead. Sometime for whatever reason the light has to be red and in some cases the public transport drivers were so used to just going through the intersection that they completely miss the lights. Also many of them get in their personal cars at the end of the day to the same effect. It's a known, studied effect and the solution is to "mix it up" a bit.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#617

Post by drcross »

kmonsen wrote: post #257
drcross wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>He's a businessman, not a scientist How can you even say that? I've heard more scientific discussions out of him compared to all the other CEO's I've ever heard speak combined. Musk has a head for physics and numbers and can easily come up with calculations for classical mechanics, material technology, information theory off the top of your head. For you to say the contrary is doublespeak.

The poster you commented said a true fact (Elon bought a company and calls himself founder). There is no facts across your rambling response, and you say others do doublespeak?

It seems I have to repeat myself here.

>He's a businessman, not a scientist

This is the point that my comment refuted.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#618

Post by tweetle_beetle »

Erlich_Bachman wrote: post #585
tweetle_beetle wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the messages delivered through marketing channels are different to the ones delivered with a physical product, then that is a problem. Visit https://www.tesla.com/autopilot and see for yourself how the message changes within a single page. Yes: "All new Tesla cars come standard with advanced hardware capable of providing Autopilot features today..." No: "...and full self-driving capabilities in the future—through…

> Yes: "All new Tesla cars come standard with advanced hardware capable of providing Autopilot features today..." > No: "...and full self-driving capabilities in the future—through software updates designed to improve functionality over time." "Autopilot" is not the same thing as full self-driving. What don't you understand? Those statements make perfect sense. > Yes: "All you will need to do is get in and tell your…

My point was that the page as a whole is not clear, but even the sample you have selected is problematic.

"will need" also implies certainty. This feature may never be available within the lifetime of the product being sold today, or indeed the lifetime of the customer or the company. This is misleading.

Tesla is making unverifiable claims about the future of a product which is on sale now.

It is a fact of the digital distribution age that traditional marketing doesn't fit the model of products which can change post-purchase. They are certainly not alone in this, with some very famous cases like No Man's Sky launching with less features than advertised or iPhone performance degrading after an iOS update.

However, this is a machine which can kill people, not a computer game missing content. Let's err on the side of caution with the marketing and not allow companies to talk about what their products can't do.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#619

Post by natch »

MereInterest wrote: post #606
natch wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it easier to pay attention when autopilot is on, for a few reasons. The first reason will fade eventually: it's fascinating to see it in action, and to observe how it reacts to situations. Another reason is I am a bit more free to vary my attention safely, checking mirrors more often, seeing more of the scenery (don't worry, with fleeting glances, not long stares that would lead me to miss a truck crossing the…

> purported / alleged. The claims of this have been debunked. Isn't this entire article about how the courts in Germany determined that it is, in fact, false advertising?

That’s your interpretation of the article’s interpretation of the court’s interpretation I guess. Making all the foregoing my interpretation of your interpretation.

Having read the Tesla website myself and understood its claims, they are not false.

I believe the court was concerned that it was theoretically possible that some people might get confused.

Or to put it in a harsh (to Tesla) way, the court feared some consumers could be misled (I would add, misled only due to the consumer’s own failure to read and listen to the information offered by Tesla with several different opportunities in varied and timely settings).

So with this in mind, the court took action based on those fears.

Conclusions beyond that are not warranted.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#620

Post by natch »

emn13 wrote: post #610
natch wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it easier to pay attention when autopilot is on, for a few reasons. The first reason will fade eventually: it's fascinating to see it in action, and to observe how it reacts to situations. Another reason is I am a bit more free to vary my attention safely, checking mirrors more often, seeing more of the scenery (don't worry, with fleeting glances, not long stares that would lead me to miss a truck crossing the…

The numbers are hard to trivially analyze, because there is no source that tracks "deaths caused by tesla cars" - NHTSA tracks deaths in cars and pedestrians, but e.g. not in other cars involved in the accident, even if potentially there car without the fatality was a contributing factor (fault is kind of irrelevant). But the numbers we do have make Tesla's look pretty dangerous. Tesla's overall fatality rate may be…

> autopilot isn't used on busy city streets

As of a recent update a month or two back, it is now. It is ever improving as they roll out new features.

Some of which are safety features. It’s a moving target. Whatever stats or safety records or flaws or concerns you think you know about today can be invalidated tomorrow.

In fact we just got an update tonight. I can’t tell you what’s in it since I haven’t gone downstairs to the car to read the release notes yet.

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