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Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

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Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#41

Post by damovisa »

My last interview process was intense:

1. A write-a-document test. I was given a fairly simple (contrived) scenario over the phone and was asked to write specs and a deployment plan with a deadline of an hour.

2. A programming test. Again, a description given over the phone and someone available to answer questions if I had them. After delivery, there was a followup programming task to extend it from a client app to a web app. It took about 8 hours in total.

Provided you're willing to put in the time (and I was), it seemed to be an excellent way of judging whether I could really do the work they needed me to.

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#42

Post by bugsy »

The spare time issue is an interesting one. One one side we have companies saying that they look for programmers who are working on projects after they get off work and on weekends. On the other side we have companies having employees sign a contract claiming that everything they do 24/7 belongs to the company. Often both sides are the same company.

It's not an issue for me only because I work for my own firm, something I had to do to get out of such bizarre situations. But it's an issue for many programmers who are told that working on their own projects is stealing time and mental energy from the company. I can certainly sympathize with the talented developer who, told that the company owns all his private projects done in his own time on his own equipment, simply chooses to leave at 5 and spend time with his family rather than have passionate private work seized and shelved by a firm who had nothing to do with its creation. It's really the rational choice if you think about it and something very valuable in a developer is rational thinking.

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#43

Post by gruseom »

amurmann wrote: post #13
amurmann wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am getting down votes for this?! WTF? Look at the domain name and understand the original post, before downvoting! Think and then act!

Yeah, keep downvoting me and don't even have the curtesy to write a comment as to why!

You're being downvoted because you broke two explicit guidelines (the last two here: http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html - you should probably read these as a linked list, not an array) as well as an informal one, that this community frowns on superficial one-liners. It's not that people here hate humour, it's that they're sensitive to how other online communities deteriorated once such comments became the norm. They are like weeds that spread rapidly and choke out the flowers and vegetables. A few weeds are ok, amusing even, but they don't make for a satisfying crop.

The weeds are one problem (users here do a pretty good job of rooting them out); a harder one is the crops themselves getting more mediocre.

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#44

Post by gommm »

tptacek wrote: post #26
staunch wrote: post #15

My current system is: 1) Simple programming challenge ( 2) Casual discussion-style interview to get to know how they think and behave. 3) Short term contract with a predefined project ( 4) Full time hire with salary + equity.

If (3) is working for you, great; however, bear in mind that it's a seller's market for talent right now. I'd neg an offer contingent on doing a 3 month contract first, and I'd advise my friends to do the same; why should I shoulder that risk, if there are 2-3 other good positions open that will take it on for me by offering FT right away?

If the 3 month contract is paid the normal wage then I'd rather go to a company that does this because it means that there's an higher probability of having competent coworkers there. That's the reason why I do the same in my own company now.

This is of course because he said he didn't care about location, so there's no moving costs and so on...

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#45

Post by kenjackson »

ams6110 wrote: post #40
tptacek wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If (3) is working for you, great; however, bear in mind that it's a seller's market for talent right now. I'd neg an offer contingent on doing a 3 month contract first, and I'd advise my friends to do the same; why should I shoulder that risk, if there are 2-3 other good positions open that will take it on for me by offering FT right away?

I don't know if it's the same everywhere, but a 90-day "probationary" period is absolutely commonplace in the USA. Not sure I see much difference.

I've never seen that in the US. I should add that to our hiring agreements!

But I do agree with the other poster. Most high quality devs I know, worth their weight, won't sign on for that. Their view is that its a slap in the face from day one, and disrespect like that from management never gets better over time.

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#46

Post by tptacek »

gommm wrote: post #44
tptacek wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If (3) is working for you, great; however, bear in mind that it's a seller's market for talent right now. I'd neg an offer contingent on doing a 3 month contract first, and I'd advise my friends to do the same; why should I shoulder that risk, if there are 2-3 other good positions open that will take it on for me by offering FT right away?

If the 3 month contract is paid the normal wage then I'd rather go to a company that does this because it means that there's an higher probability of having competent coworkers there. That's the reason why I do the same in my own company now. This is of course because he said he didn't care about location, so there's no moving costs and so on...

Why would the competent developers migrate to the company that is more hostile, in a purely objective sense, than the alternatives?

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#47

Post by zlopid »

michaelchisari wrote: post #27

Despite having written tens of thousands of lines of open source code, I have yet to have an interviewer who has looked at that code and asked me about it.

Whenever I see a resume with open source code, I always visit and try to read some of their code. I rarely ask them about it (there's little time), but it does inform which questions I want to ask in the interview and my overall impression of their skills.

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#48

Post by tptacek »

ams6110 wrote: post #40
tptacek wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If (3) is working for you, great; however, bear in mind that it's a seller's market for talent right now. I'd neg an offer contingent on doing a 3 month contract first, and I'd advise my friends to do the same; why should I shoulder that risk, if there are 2-3 other good positions open that will take it on for me by offering FT right away?

I don't know if it's the same everywhere, but a 90-day "probationary" period is absolutely commonplace in the USA. Not sure I see much difference.

Virtually all employment in the US is at will, meaning you are continually on "probation". The difference between a contractor and an FT is that the contractor is 1099'd, pays both halves of FICA taxes, and isn't provided health insurance; more importantly, when the employer is as overt about the issue as "not hiring you full time", there's no implied social contract or norm ensuring you'll even end up getting the job.

Contractors make significantly more money than full time devs partly for this reason. They're compensated for shouldering the risk of keeping a full book of work. Getting a good developer to work as a contractor for what will eventually be their FT wage is almost kind of a scam.

This is a simple, practical issue. You're Sam, a developer with 5 years experience. You have a choice between two roughly equal jobs. One prospective employer offers you a full time job tomorrow; the other offers you a 3 month auditioning contract. Which offer do you pick?

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#49

Post by evgen »

ams6110 wrote: post #40
tptacek wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If (3) is working for you, great; however, bear in mind that it's a seller's market for talent right now. I'd neg an offer contingent on doing a 3 month contract first, and I'd advise my friends to do the same; why should I shoulder that risk, if there are 2-3 other good positions open that will take it on for me by offering FT right away?

I don't know if it's the same everywhere, but a 90-day "probationary" period is absolutely commonplace in the USA. Not sure I see much difference.

Out here in SV it is almost unheard of; if someone is not working out after 90 or 180 or 365 days you drop them and move on. It is definitely a sellers market for talent here and anyone who is worthwhile enough to make an offer to is not going to put with an explicit probationary period (since everyone is a at-will employee and general non-competes are worthless the concept is pretty much a moot point anyway...)

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#50

Post by shangaslammi »

btmorex wrote: post #37
six0six wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone who opts-in to #3 is not necessarily desperate. In fact, to the contrary, they likely also want an opportunity to feel the company out and be more confident in their choice to stay/leave at the end of 3mo.

There's nothing preventing them from quitting after 3 months with a normal offer.

Depends on the contract. Over here (Finland) it's very common to have a three months "trial period", during which both the employer and employee are free to terminate the contract at (practically) any point and for any reason. However, after that three months, you need to give a one month advance notice to quit and firing someone becomes more complicated too.
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