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Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

bbc.com

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Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#451

Post by nodamage »

diffeomorphism wrote: post #443
nodamage wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, tax rates can change over time. It seems like the goalposts have now been moved from "did they pay US tax?" to "did they pay enough US tax?". You're free to argue that 15% is not a high enough corporate tax rate, but it is factually incorrect to say Apple did not pay US tax on the money they earned overseas.

> I mean, tax rates can change over time. It seems like the goalposts have now been moved from "did they pay US tax?" to "did they pay enough US tax?". No, that is decidedly not what we are talking about. The claim was that holding all your money away from the US does not matter because the tax will be paid eventually. As we see, no it wasn't and the tax rate was not lowered because "taxes change over time" but becau…

Perhaps you should re-read the comment I was replying to. The original claim was that Apple didn't pay US taxes at all. I simply pointed out that they did.

A temporary change in the tax rate during 2018 is, by definition, the tax rate changing over time. If a product normally sells for $50 and I wait until it's on sale for $25 to buy it, did I pay the "wrong" price? No, I paid the price the vendor set at the time of purchase.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#452

Post by danhanlon »

nfg wrote: post #285
danhanlon wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Admittedly not too familiar with the hardware R&D work going on here, I know Intel is largely manufacturing with a bit of development from things like the purchase of Movidius. For the software side, what are those R&D departments actually working on? Would you really say it's R&D and product development? From what I can see, both from my own experience and from job posts, most of the engineering jobs are themselves…

I can only speak for myself, but I’m in a group of ≈50 working on prime software R&D (as you term it) in a very trendy space in Dublin for a large multinational. I don’t want to say too much beyond that - and you’re probably right that it’s the exception rather than the rule - but it does exist.

If you work where I think you work (Irish founded company, office is about as central as you can get in Dublin) it's a great example of the type of thing we need more of! I really do think it's the exception unfortunately, even within the other parts of the multinational here.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#453

Post by dahauns »

fidelramos wrote: post #392
sjy wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Portugal’s tax take as a percentage of GDP tracks pretty closely to the OECD average. France, Sweden etc have significantly higher rates. https://data.oecd.org/tax/tax-revenue.htm

That is true, but Portuguese citizens make a bigger effort to pay those taxes than French, German, Swedish... Tax take as a % of GDP doesn't tell the whole story.

Er...I might be misunderstanding something here - but it literally does?

Something like tax rates statistics wouldn't tell you whether those taxes are actually paid - but tax revenue statistics do exactly this.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#454

Post by nickpp »

tsimionescu wrote: post #449
nickpp wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need a line of credit to start a business. You just need desire to work and ingenuity. People are more than happy to give you money if you are willing to do the work. There are countless rags-to-riches stories from all over the world. But first you need to change your mind set. With self-limiting beliefs like those, you'll never get anywhere. Not only are they patently false, they don't help you in any way.…

For every story of entrepreneurial success, there are countless others of failures. The vast majority of people are not just too dumb to see the opportunities, as you have arrogance to imply. They are well aware of the risks, and can't afford to take them. Plus, an economy can't run on business founders alone. It requires workers that actually, you know, do the work, and who are willing to be paid for a less than tha…

Yeah, to succeed you first have to believe you CAN succeed. Plenty of limitations you’re so very sure about, but have you even ever TRIED?

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#455

Post by ClumsyPilot »

dantheman wrote: post #427
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly, one can have innovation with no economic growth and vice-versa, the two phenomena are distinct and separate. Much of econonic growth is about organisatuonal aspect's of society, rather than inventing new technology. Technology depebds on world of atoms, ans discoveries do not come on demand, nor are they particularly well rewarded. Einstein did not die a billionaire. Neither did most great scientists. Lastly…

Einstein didn't develop technology, he was a scientist. Science != Technology, but Science and Technology and are linked. Often times technology precedes the science, and then the science is developed and advances the technology.

What does this mean? Are Computer scientists developing technology?

All technology is a science, i think you are trying to draw is the distinction between fundamental science that discovers laws of nature, and indutrial kind that figures out the best process for manufacturing stainless steel.

>> "Often times technology precedes the science," This can happen by freak accident, but generally science has to find and researched some law of nature before you can take advantage of it to develop some product or manufacturing process.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#456

Post by pietrovismara »

logicchains wrote: post #38
m12k wrote: post #20

Transfer pricing and tax havens are draining money out of the economies of most European countries, breaking the virtuous cycle where consumer spending also leads to salaries, taxes and more investment in the community, to keep the economy going - instead we have a shrinking middle class, as the fuel is drained from the engine. Ireland, Luxembourg and certain other countries are complicit in this. We clearly need bet…

>Transfer pricing and tax havens are draining money out of the economies of most European countries, breaking the virtuous cycle where consumer spending also leads to salaries, taxes and more investment in the community, to keep the economy going - instead we have a shrinking middle class, as the fuel is drained from the engine. An alternative interpretation is that the high degree of taxes and regulations in Europe…

Why have new tech corporations if they don't bring anything to the table except very few specialized jobs and no taxes, compared to the huge profit they make every year?

What would Europe stand to get from having more Fortune 500 companies? It doesn't seem like it's helping in the US at all. On the other hand, Europe still has a much better lifestyle for people who are not rich.

We must end the concept that nations are subject to the market and corporations whims. That's the narrative they are spreading, but they can't do without Europe's profits, so it's better we realize that as states we have more power over them than they'd like to admit.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#457

Post by splintercell »

mrlala wrote: post #323
1123581321 wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Efficacy of these services is not a given relative to low tax + charity. Additionally, lower government revenue should require cuts from other areas first, like military and corporate subsidies. We shouldn’t accept that any of the supposedly missing Apple tax revenue should affect the poor or uneducated. To threaten such seems unethical.

Not sure how you sleep at night with logic like that, but ok.

These kinds of comments don't belong to HN.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#458

Post by splintercell »

yashap wrote: post #404
LudwigNagasena wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me absolutely ethical. Any country can make whatever tax laws they want to get an advantage over other countries. If the EU and its population want to ban this practice, they should reorganize the tax laws.

My view is: - It makes sense for governments to provide healthcare, education, police, the military, welfare for the elderly/poor/disabled, basic infrastructure like electricity, water, etc. These things don't tend to work well when privatized, and humanity has advanced to the point where we have sufficient productivity/technological advances that we can (and should) provide these things for everyone - These things a…

"virtually no impact on the person or corporation"

How do you conclude that? Come to my house and take away anything you think has no impact on me , how are you concluding that this has no impact on anything?

This is all bad thinking. Apple is holding a cash Reserve with 250 billion dollar, and you seem to know why instead of distributing it to their shareholders they are stocking it. Similarly, you apparently know what Jeff Bezos wants to do with his money.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#459

Post by pietrovismara »

6510 wrote: post #302
fennecfoxen wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree. The most pro-Wal-Mart economists will tell you that Wal-Mart as a firm has boosted the US economy by at least 1% of GDP, by being more efficient, and forcing its competitors to be more efficient as well. Suppose for a moment that we accept that claim uncritically -- it is still very clear to see that these gains do not accrue through the vehicle of employment. Indeed, the non-logistics savings from Wal-Mart co…

> forcing its competitors to be more efficient as well Right, must be good for those workers too!

Especially when being more efficient amounts to automating production and cutting the workforce / finding new ways to squeeze value out of workers while reducing expenses.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#460

Post by pietrovismara »

majidazimi wrote: post #115
myspy wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European developers don't need to live in areas though, where they have to pay 2 million dollars for a house and they have social security and health care. This lessens your argument.

I live and work in Munich and I have to pay half a million euros for a 25m^2 box. EU is cheaper than US is a fallacy.

Yours is a fallacy, as Munich is certainly not representative of the rest of Europe.
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