Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't like take homes for two reasons: 1) It's less time spent talking with potential coworkers. Which for me, coworkers (and how we work together/get along) determine about 90% of how satisfied I am with my job (assuming pay/benefits are standard). 2) You're still going to require me to take a day off and stand up in front of a whiteboard anyway eventually. Every take home I've done is an early stage filter. The f…
Oh man I can relate, I once took a home project which took around 6hrs and then was subsequently invited for a full day of white-boarding with 10 different people throughout the day. Didn't hit it off with the last interviewer so it was a no-go. If a take-home is required I'd at least expect a code review over it and focus the rest of the interview process on soft skills rather than trivia questions that are answered…
Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study
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Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study
#742>All of the women who took the public interview failed, while all of the women who took the private interview passed. Companies that are serious about avoiding gender discrimination in their hiring practices need to carefully consider what they are really looking for when certain candidates seem to have "the right stuff" after a whiteboard interview. We need more research in this area.
Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study
#743Earlier quoted context omitted.
Amazon is the king of assessing how much you want to work for the company. The recruiter will place a huge emphasis on nailing their Leadership Principles, and coming up with stories from your work to demonstrate you embody the Principles. They will even tell you that specific interviewers have specific LPs they will probe on, but in the actual interview they ask very veiled questions and you're supposed to know that…
I interviewed with Amazon and I hated the LP bullshit. I hated it so much I gave a ton of feedback and had a very lengthy and illuminating conversation about the process with a friend of mine who works there. Amazon knows full well what the LP interview experience is like, and it's by design. It's not about "how much you want to work at Amazon", but it's also explicitly, intentionally not about "actually getting to k…
As an ex-Amazonian that did my fair share of interviewing, I can share additional context on some of the above:
* Tardiness and just the general unprofessional handling of someone being interviewed: At least in the area I worked this would have been unacceptable and the interviewer would have had a very uncomfortable conversation with their leaders. I can't imagine a repeat offender lasting long. There was a huge emphasis placed on the importance of the hiring process, the importance of doing it well, and that finding the right people was about the most important thing to be doing. Obviously at a company of >700k people it's not going to be a consistent experience across the board. * I learnt this from various forums before I attended my own interview so it's not exactly a company secret: but yes, each interviewer is told the LPs they'll be asked to assess. You're expected to spend the full 55-60mins asking questions on those LPs to maximise the change the person gets the job. It's too easy to burn 20mins talking about hobbies and ultimately that's not going to help the candidate get the job. Even worse is that if there's suddenly some shared interest and experience that conversation derails into enjoyable but more unproductive conversation. The feedback skews to "I like this person" and is filled with bias vs "here is the examples for why they'll be successful here". * The standard set of questions is a leveller to give everyone a consistent experience and try to reduce the likelihood that someone gets a job just because they interview well. * Likewise the seemingly unrelenting questioning that's effectively trying to gauge examples for just 1-2 LPs in my experience provides a fairer experience to most other alternatives I've experienced. People with pre-canned answers that they're able to spin nicely start to fumble when people want to keep digging into the details on the same thing for more than 5mins. Conversely people who struggle to think of the right words off the top of their head, or are especially modest about their accomplishments, don't immediately suffer. They're given a time and space, and ideally a lot of guidance, to expand on things. * There's no quota the amount of notes you need to take. However, the debrief for every single interview loop I was part of was always 30-60mins. You don't get to show up with some vague feelings about what the next step is. You need to come with an opinion, with the evidence to support it, and not waste every other interviewers time. If you disagree with another interviewer you need to be able to point at the specific evidence you have either for or against the candidate. We'd often be told "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". You needed the evidence for whatever point you wanted to make, otherwise you've just wasted the candidates time. * The rigour in the post-interview process and debate, which builds upon the foundation of all of the above activities, is ultimately what it's in service of IMO. Every candidate gets case heard with all of the most compelling evidence that can be provided. I've been involved in debriefs where all but one interviewer came with a "not inclined/do not hire" decision. The discussion and debate that ensued and the recalibration from the collective notes ultimately flipped everyone to a hire. I'm pretty sure every other company I've worked at would have had such a debrief be over and done with in a couple of minutes and we'd move on to the next interviews. * The other part of this that's not always immediately obvious is it's a pretty binary assessment. You can either do the job or you can't. If you can, as determined by the debrief, you get an offer. So first through successfully wins. There's no stack ranking candidates against each other and trying to apply some subjective assessment of who is in a relative sense the "best". Which is again why there's such a strong emphasis on consistency, removing bias,
It's definitely not perfect. It can skew very heavy towards feeling impersonal and like the candidate is being interrogated for an entire day. The thing I missed most about vs other places I've worked was the interrogation feeling like a reinforcement of the power imbalance inherent in a job interview vs levelling the experience and making it just as much for the candidate "would I want to work here/with these people?". But on balance it's probably the most consistent and fairest approach I've experienced (when properly executed, which it wasn't for you, so I'm sorry you saw the worst of it).
Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study
#744Earlier quoted context omitted.
The funny thing about this is: They're not looking for someone that is eager enough to show they're willing to work through it even though they have no idea to proceed. They are looking for someone that got lucky enough to be ready to answer that particular problem, but won't stand up to them that the ask was a bit too much for a reasonable interview that is intended to see if you're a fit for the company and skilled…
Exactly agreed, and because my inclination is to say "I've never used this in previous jobs and will never use it here", I don't think it's useful for me to be interviewing for jobs. A friend of mine, when asked to implement an AVL tree, actually asked an interviewer when the last time he had to implement an AVL tree on the job was. He wasn't hired.
The department should run the interviews through their own employees first. If some questions cause an "interview anti-loop" (a set of other employees S who would not hire E) it's time to revise those questions.
Revise and rehearse these practice interviews within the department, and do it blind, until all of S are willing to "hire" each other for their respective roles.
Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study
#745It’s a problem that most people seem to not want fixed until they are themselves negatively impacted. Since the very concept of ethics is so utterly foreign its need and application cannot be effectively communicated without resulting in some manner of embarrassment or hostility.
Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study
#746Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Maybe we should interview with small take-home tasks to be submitted with some write-ups to test how people research, reason, and write-up problems, rather than writing code on the spot on a whiteboard. ...but maybe that's just me. I'm a huge fan of giving people tasks that somewhat resemble a real world problem they'd likely encounter or at least aligns categorically with their proclaimed resume feats and more impo…
> People easily identify that white-boarding interviews suck for more than just the interviewee. And yet any time a solution is proposed that involves doing something other than putting the candidate in a room in front of a whiteboard for an hour, it's shot down. Most people take issue with the repetition of similar tests and evaluations for multiple companies. If A, B, and C were considered different stages of a tec…
Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study
#747That experiment assumes that SWE job is exclusively about solving technical problems, so we can just "lock the candidate in a private room and let them solve it". In reality human to human interactions, sometimes stressful, are part of the job. Customer & PM requirements, technical debates, giving feedback, explaining your technical solutions, etc. are common. Maybe part of the problem is the education that does not…
Hopping aboard your train of thought here... I've never been asked to whiteboard anything truly heinous, and I absolutely despise interviews that are set up as a gauntlet to be ran. But if I'm interviewing you for a senior SQL engineer position, and you can't talk me through whiteboarding a simple query with one join and one aggregate function... you're not senior material. I'm sorry. We need people that can communic…
And I can ship products. I've done that a bunch of times--in several cases I've written most or all of the code in the shipping product.
I can't interview all that well, though, and I'm absolutely terrible at whiteboard coding, or pretty much any kind of problem-solving with people watching me. Except pair programming. Pair programming with a colleague that I know well is no problem.
I have two obstacles. One is anxiety. I score really high on trait neuroticism. It's one of the so-called "Big Five" personality traits. One of the things it means is that I have a lot of self doubt regardless of cause or circumstance, and a lot of anxiety to go with it. As for "working on myself a little bit," the Big Five are extremely resistant to change. Basically, the only things we know of that affect them much are psychedelic drugs and catastrophic trauma. Working on myself a little isn't going to reduce my trait neuroticism much.
I've been through quite a few tech interviews, including some familiar big names. I've gotten offers. But that's never been because of my performance in coding or solving brain teasers, at which my anxiety has been uniformly awful, and so has my performance.
The second obstacle I have is that I cannot combine certain classes of cognitive activity. For example, I cannot navigate and carry on a conversation at the same time. I can drive just fine--safely and competently. I just can't navigate if involved in a conversation, and will predictably get lost. It's predictable enough that when my daughter was a teenager she exploited it for laughs. "Let's see where we end up!"
Another thing I cannot do is solve logic and programming problems while being watched or while carrying on conversations with strangers. The interaction with the strangers forcibly occupies 100% of my attention.
I don't know if I'm representative of a vanishingly small fraction of the population. Maybe so. But maybe there are others more or less like me.
Doesn't mean you need to change your hiring preferences. Probably does mean you won't hire me. Oh well. I seem to be making do.
If there are others like me reading, and wondering what to do about it, one thing that has worked well for me is to do good work for people and cultivate good working relationships with them. I have more often than not been hired by someone who already knew my work, or on the recommendation of someone who knew my work.
Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study
#748Earlier quoted context omitted.
My native language is English and I'm fluent and well educated. Although I do know that "average" covers mean, median and mode, when I was young I was not taught that way. First I was just taught "average" with a formula, and many years later "median" and "mode". I don't think I noticed the term "mean" until I learned about median and mode. You can see this reflected in scientific calculators used at school, where th…
> So far as I can tell, the common word for statistical mean is "average" in English You're quite probably right about common parlance.. > but it's not the correct technical language. ..but as you point out it's not really appropriate in a technical context, indeed I don't think I've come across the term "average" being used in this way in technical literature; I've normally either seen expectation (for probability t…
Incidentally, "mean" doesn't quite cut it, if you want to be a stickler about it. There are several types of means: arithmetic, geometric, harmonic, etc. By that standard, you just failed the interview.
Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study
#749Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sorry, but C2H sounds like a great idea to you because you have the luxury of having already earned FAANG money on your side. You'd have to pay me considerable money for me to consider taking a C2H role so I could cover health insurance across the usual suspects (general health, dental, vision, specialists just in case). Like many people outside of this website (and enough here), I don't have the luxury of FAANG mone…
This is one of the reasons I've always found it paradoxical that people in the US seem to think that universal healthcare would depress the labour market. Up here in Canada not all procedures are insured, Pharma, Vision & Dental are the big three that most either pay out of pocket or purchase extended insurance for - though there are generally pretty good provincial programs to help with the costs of those. However,…
Mate when I (in the US) took a month off because I got COVID, my insurance tried to cancel. Fucking insane that we have to deal with this shit.
Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study
#750Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've definitely repeated that line in the past to justify tech industry interviewing practices - but sometimes it goes beyond "setting a high bar" to something more toxic: an interviewer using the interview as a chance to show off how smart _they_ are, rather than assess the candidate; deliberately creating high-stakes "pressure cooker" environments because, you know, that's just how we work here and they should get…
I think it goes far beyond that. I'd bet dollars to donuts that you will find both protected and unprotected groups over represented in the false negative pile. Do women have more test anxiety then men? If so, guess what your process is selecting for. Do minorities have more self doubt than majorities. Same thing. And so on. And that doesn't address the file drawer effect. I'm 54. I can code a binary tree, hash table…
Ooohhhh this is frustrating. Nothing is more frustrating than telling an interviewer about something cool you've done, and realizing they don't understand, but also don't care.