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Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

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Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One trend I've noticed that is markedly different from when I started programming in 1998, is how dependent we've become to program via Google/StackExchange searches. I'm not sure I know how to write anything from scratch anymore, because I just search/read/alter/test. The breadth of what I work on is 100x wider than it used to be, and so I've become absolutely dependent on quickly reading docs, copying code found on…

It's not just you :) A much more realistic way to test people is to tell them to bring their laptop, point to a problem on the whiteboard and say "here, solve it, and use whatever resources you need." I'm somewhat like you; I do a wide variety of tasks every day and simply can't keep all the different rules and syntaxes in my head. I'm terrible at tests anyway and would probably bomb a FAANG interview badly because o…

I don't even have a personal laptop, seems like bringing the employer provided laptop to interviews is not the most sensible.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#632
post #421
post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A pro tip for anyone reading this who ever ends up in a similar situation: just postpone the interview. I promise you that everyone will understand. Everyone gets that these things are a little goofy[1] and wants to set people up for success and not doom them to failure. 1. Yes, there is a larger and more complicated discussion to be had about making the whole system better. But that isn't gonna happen in the short t…

It's worth emphasizing, as a hiring manager: By the time you're in an interview, I want to hire you. I'm sitting there hoping to write "Strong hire" on my feedback form.

Same. If someone makes it that far, I (and several others) have already decided that they stand out. So I'm secretly rooting for them the moment the interview starts.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#633
post #138

It seems pretty obvious to me that this kind of interviews are simply there to assess how much you want to work for a certain company. As in: would you be willing to study for months, go through mock interviews, read books, test your skills etc. to have a shot at working for us? Even though the majority of that stuff will likely have zero impact on your day to day work? That's all there is, really. I've had no proble…

It's both. Either you're brilliant and can implement Kahn/KMP/Rabin Karp from memory or just by thinking about the problem, or you've practiced a ton and dedicated lots of work to the grind.

For large companies like FB or Goog, if they lose a few people to false negatives, it's fine because there are hundreds more lining up.

Either way, from the large company perspective, the system works. Most notably, it's really efficient.

The issue is when small company A starts asking you to implement Tarjan's or something. That's where this interview process seems particularly damaging.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel in the tech industry, networking and knowing people only gets you so far - typically just to the whiteboard interview. Then you have to solve the leetcode problems just like everyone else. Especially so in larger companies. FWIW, all of my friends who somehow managed to get into FAANG or other top tech companies swear that were they to go through the interview again, odds are they would fail. This despite all…

I'm actually a little scared to leave my current FAANG gig for that exact reason tbh. I'm fairly certain I wouldn't make it back in the door without more leetcode grinding + repeated loops than I'm willing to do at this point in my career. Plus, stack on top of that, I've seen how the sausage is made. I've done 90+ interviews on the other side. At the end of the day, it comes down to how lucky you got in the loop. I'…

Stop lumping Apple into FAANG in this way. Facebook, Amazon, Netflix and Google all have centralized hiring. Apple does not and no two groups interview the same and there is tons of latitude for managers to make this lower toil. There is no cross-organization level setting or job descriptions for any position at Apple outside of an SVP business unit. I know from experience working at two other FAANGs that Apple does things way differently. Apple's biggest weaknesses and strengths come from their lack of centrality, but here it is to the benefit of the interviewee since they are given more individual care out at the periphery.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#635

I conducted a couple hundred interviews for my first FAANG employer, and I was constantly amazed at the percentage of candidates with years of Microsoft or Facebook experience on the resumes who apparently did not know how to program. I always thought, 'huh, guess I know why they quit after 3 years, amazing that they all lasted this long." Then I interviewed for another company and utterly bombed. It became suddenly…

My experience has been quite opposite. I worked for a FANG and conducted over 100 interviews. Most of that time I thought I was asking really hard questions and wasn't sure I would have been able to answer them if I hadn't seen the question before. I later interviewed at a different FANG, surprised myself and answered harder questions than I typically gave and answered them better than most of the people we hired. No…

That sounds like when you spend a lot of time exposed to and walking through certain types of problems led you to getting good at solving those types of problems.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#636

I'm a ex-FANG dev that started a recruiting company, so I am VERY familiar with the arbitrary tech interview process. I'm a huge proponent of contract-to-hire. Even started a company* to make it easier for companies to offer contract-to-hire. Now before you dismiss the idea because you are "too good" to do C2H hear me out. Everyone knows that actually working with someone on the job is the only way to get an accurate…

Everybody does not in fact know that "actually working with someone" is the "only" way to get an accurate evaluation of an engineer. There are recruiting/qualification disciplines besides temp-to-hire and whiteboard interviews.

Temp-to-hire is problematic for its own distinctive reasons:

* It's difficult to generate apples-to-apples comparisons of candidates in a temp-to-hire setting because the engineering workload isn't constant; candidates are getting the luck of the draw with whatever the tasks are during their contracting period.

* There's as much subjectivity built into the projects candidates get during their temp-to-hire as there are in whiteboard interviews, so culturally preferred candidates are just as likely to get fast-tracked in a temp-to-hire process as with interviews.

* Interview processes routinely evaluate many candidates for a single opening --- that's expected in basically all hiring, across every industry --- and can't reasonably offer temp roles many candidates simultaneously, so in effect temp-to-hire just pushes the qualification problem to a higher level of the funnel, where the recruiting process decides who to extend temp offers to.

* Temporary contracts draw out the hiring process and potentially make it take far longer to finally fill a role than other processes do; you're required to trade accuracy of evaluation against the time taken to fill a role, bearing in mind that when candidates wash out of their temp contract, you likely have to start all over again with another candidate, making it even more important to pre-screen candidates before offering roles, which just recapitulates the whole problem.

* The tech industry is notoriously bad at evaluating on-the-job performance too; every developer I've talked to has stories of dead weight team members† that were kept on the team interminably because no process existed to evaluate their performance accurately. There's a whole cottage industry of people who have failed up† through role after role, because there's no resume difference between people who phoned in a role† for a year or two and then decided to move on, and people who did well.

* Perhaps most importantly, temp-to-hire is deeply unfair to candidates; a career norm in tech is that people secure their next role while winding up their previous one (in fact, that's a norm in most white collar industries, which is why there's so much written career advice about how to handle counteroffers). Taking a temp-to-hire position requires a candidate to forego income security for a chance at a job; when that job doesn't work out, they're now in a distressed position when looking for their next job.

(I'd add, though it's a nit, that temp-to-hire positions virtually never compensate appropriately; contractor wages are routinely 2x+ what FTE wages are, in large part precisely because of what makes temp-to-hire so attractive: freedom to fire on a moment's notice with no commercial/reputational cost.)

Shut up, Kurt

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think people are naive, they just don't have a better solution. Most established professionals are not interested in a 10 week trial period after which they might be back on the job market.

I don't see how internships help. I get the point that at the end you know if they're a hire but you still had to filter who to intern in the first place so you're still back to interview people to be interns which is the same problem you had. Also, training a new employee or intern in your systems, code, company procedures etc takes a bunch of time and investment so it's not like you can intern some higher multiple…

The distinction for interns is that there is a definite end to the internship, no harm no foul. An employer can easily pass on every intern that is not a perfect fit without tarnishing the interns' reputations. That allows a less restrictive filter to be applied in selecting interns.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, devs that work for me also work in a critical environment such as yours. As soon as an issue is raised by our clients, they immediately kick off a 40 minute long timer and put a physical whiteboard in front of us asking us to solve the whiteboard problem in front of them in under an hour. All the while the client is physically behind us commenting on our code and watching our every move as we paint the whiteboa…

I can’t tell if this is an actual white boarding purgatory you live in or a joke ?

Our company consults in a variety of software related things. For example in our interviews we ask our candidates why are manhole covers round?

We ask them this because, literally on the job our employees are suppose to program robots that make manhole covers. Daily problems we face include deciding whether we should program the robots to make square manhole covers or round manhole covers. Really hard stuff... and you really need to be able to figure out why manhole covers are round or how many golf balls can fit in a bus in order to do the job... If you can't figure this stuff out you're not qualified to work for my company.

Not to mention, as I said before, none of our programming happens using computers. We do it all on a whiteboard in under an hour while the client is over our shoulder watching.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but C2H sounds like a great idea to you because you have the luxury of having already earned FAANG money on your side. You'd have to pay me considerable money for me to consider taking a C2H role so I could cover health insurance across the usual suspects (general health, dental, vision, specialists just in case). Like many people outside of this website (and enough here), I don't have the luxury of FAANG mone…

In my experience, with C2H you typically earn more in the contract phase than you would with a base salary, which is helpful in covering benefits or out of pocket expenses. Maybe that's not always the case, but salaried employees usually earn 80% or less what their contract counterparts do. And you kind of have to bomb the contract phase to not be given the offer, unless there are other circumstances at play (budgets…

> Maybe that's not always the case, but salaried employees usually earn 80% or less what their contract counterparts do.

That's because the employer is covering significant costs on behalf of the employe. A fully-loaded FTE typically costs 30% to 40% more than they're base salary.

Contractors need to make more because they're covering all of those things themselves.

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