Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#551

Post by OliverJones » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 8:49 PM UTC

koheripbal wrote: post #416

lrem wrote: post #377

People bomb, including good people. That is sadly part of the system. Once I had this candidate. Damn, I know my questions are deceptively simple on purpose, but he literally couldn't do anything. Not even a trivial brute force. Not even any related simple knowledge questions. Couldn't tell an average from a median. The only good thing I could write in the feedback was "seems to know some basic syntax". It was quite…

One trend I've noticed that is markedly different from when I started programming in 1998, is how dependent we've become to program via Google/StackExchange searches. I'm not sure I know how to write anything from scratch anymore, because I just search/read/alter/test. The breadth of what I work on is 100x wider than it used to be, and so I've become absolutely dependent on quickly reading docs, copying code found on…

I've been doing this for a LOOONG time. Early on, the core skill for a programmer was intensive in-depth knowledge of the language being used. We all talked a good game about what we called "reusable software," but yeah. Talk.

Now things are TOTALLY different. Doing a good job requires extensive, encyclopedic, knowledge of what's out there, how well it works, and how to integrate it. npm, nuget, maven, anaconda, we all know the drill. In a day's work it's much less necessary to implement an algorithm from memory.

What should programmers know from memory? Simple stuff like fizzbuzz. The difference between TCP and UDP. What DNS is for. If SQL data's involved the difference between JOIN and LEFT JOIN.

And, if they're experienced, they must be able to describe intelligently how their own stuff fit into the bigger system they worked on. Because there's always a bigger system.

If they're being hired to be a tech rep to an *sshole customer, possibly their performance under pressure matters a lot. Otherwise, not.

This business of high stakes quiz questions serves just one purpose: feeding the ego of the interviewer. "We have high standards!"

Yeah, so high that we wouldn't hire Jesus of Nazareth to be a storyteller.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#552

Post by TimPC » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 8:49 PM UTC

lkjdsklf wrote: post #407

fragmede wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd be surprised. In an industry rife with impostor syndrome, and the perception that it takes intelligence to pass a FANG algorithm interview (it does, but hard work and discipline beats raw intelligence), there's a strong disincentive to admit that "hey, I studied really hard, for months in order to get this job" when there's an expectation that your coworkers and peers will look down on you after this comes to l…

You would think that if the interview process was filtering on anxiety levels it would lead these companies to be full of people with high confidence which would mean imposter syndrome would not be a widespread issue.

Impostor syndrome is most present in elite environments though. It's a syndrome because someone is genuinely talented but surrounded by high talent for each person it's easy to identify an area where they are better than you. In some cases it's easy to feel like you're not the best at anything in your work social circle.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#553

Post by cowmoo728 » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 8:50 PM UTC

lkjdsklf wrote: post #407

fragmede wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd be surprised. In an industry rife with impostor syndrome, and the perception that it takes intelligence to pass a FANG algorithm interview (it does, but hard work and discipline beats raw intelligence), there's a strong disincentive to admit that "hey, I studied really hard, for months in order to get this job" when there's an expectation that your coworkers and peers will look down on you after this comes to l…

You would think that if the interview process was filtering on anxiety levels it would lead these companies to be full of people with high confidence which would mean imposter syndrome would not be a widespread issue.

Some people have high anxiety levels but still perform well under pressure. The anxiety gets sublimated into other behaviors, or bottled up until after the interview, or meditated away, etc. Even people that can handle high anxiety levels can still get impostor syndrome.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#554

Post by aaronharnly » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 8:50 PM UTC

x0x0 wrote: post #421

harryh wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A pro tip for anyone reading this who ever ends up in a similar situation: just postpone the interview. I promise you that everyone will understand. Everyone gets that these things are a little goofy[1] and wants to set people up for success and not doom them to failure. 1. Yes, there is a larger and more complicated discussion to be had about making the whole system better. But that isn't gonna happen in the short t…

It's worth emphasizing, as a hiring manager: By the time you're in an interview, I want to hire you. I'm sitting there hoping to write "Strong hire" on my feedback form.

I think this is true as a hiring manager, but isn't necessarily true for an interviewer, who may be a senior engineer applying a very strong filter to the "who would I want on my team" test.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#555

Post by marcinzm » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 8:50 PM UTC

rainyMammoth wrote: post #540

marcinzm wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the quality they're actually testing for: ability to study and dedicate yourself to a task. Or in other words work ethic. The algorithms don't matter but the fact that you can spend months learning them is an important skill. Intelligence is less important for success than work ethic which is why work ethic is tested for so much. Specifically, work ethic and ability to learn in a related domain as, for…

Ethics? You are asking people to study and spend hours working on LeetCode problems for something close to completely useless. On the ethical scale, people that accept to spend hours of their limited life doing so are probably not the ones I would think of as "looking to work on something great"

Most of the jobs at these companies are boring grunt work and definitely not working on something great. So they're selecting the right people for that. You do get paid significantly more than other companies so there's a very real incentive for playing the game.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#556

Post by TimPC » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 8:51 PM UTC

rsweeney21 wrote: post #448

I'm a ex-FANG dev that started a recruiting company, so I am VERY familiar with the arbitrary tech interview process. I'm a huge proponent of contract-to-hire. Even started a company* to make it easier for companies to offer contract-to-hire. Now before you dismiss the idea because you are "too good" to do C2H hear me out. Everyone knows that actually working with someone on the job is the only way to get an accurate…

This C2H approach seems to ignore the fact that companies have a genuine preference for paying with stock options that they can pay for by issuing new stock rather than expending cash on hand in the US, something which can be a scarce resource at times given a combination of cash flow situations and US tax law. Stock options on short-term contracts tend to be less feasible.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#557

Post by prewett » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 8:51 PM UTC

Bekwnn wrote: post #441

leafboi wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've been arrogant for years and you know what? So have I. I and many, many people in this industry have been doing this for years. What's different from you and many other people is that you admit and face your bias rather than justify it. I'm seriously curious what google interview board members have to say about this study. People like Gayle Laakmaan have been saying things to justify the whole process for years…

At the start of my third year as a student, I biked through a record-worthy rainfall to my first interview with a small local games studio. Showed up completely soaked, but sat down relaxed and feeling reasonably confident. (I had done a handful of unity and opengl projects.) The interview started with a bit of small talk, I chatted with one of the guys about Brood War and Starcraft 2. Later during the technical inte…

I like that you give an example of what kind of interview you do like.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#558

Post by glouwbug » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 8:52 PM UTC

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #40

Multiple discussions about this on HN today, that's good. Maybe it will lead to the pendulum swinging back a bit. Interviewers need to do their due diligence. Coding tests can have their place when interviewing for certain kinds of positions, especially for new grads and entry level positions. In the end nothing can replace checking references and looking into a person's work experience. There is no algorithms and da…

Your last paragraph sums what why everyone on HN is so upset about the interview process. That is, the process is tailored for new grads, and what is being tested is not at all related to the job. 5 years of schooling, and 10 years of experience is not enough if you can't implement depth first search using double linked lists, hashes - and ultimately graph theory - within 45 mins. Heck, new grads can't even do so.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#559

Post by katzgrau » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 8:52 PM UTC

rc-1140 wrote: post #482

rsweeney21 wrote: post #448

I'm a ex-FANG dev that started a recruiting company, so I am VERY familiar with the arbitrary tech interview process. I'm a huge proponent of contract-to-hire. Even started a company* to make it easier for companies to offer contract-to-hire. Now before you dismiss the idea because you are "too good" to do C2H hear me out. Everyone knows that actually working with someone on the job is the only way to get an accurate…

Sorry, but C2H sounds like a great idea to you because you have the luxury of having already earned FAANG money on your side. You'd have to pay me considerable money for me to consider taking a C2H role so I could cover health insurance across the usual suspects (general health, dental, vision, specialists just in case). Like many people outside of this website (and enough here), I don't have the luxury of FAANG mone…

In my experience, with C2H you typically earn more in the contract phase than you would with a base salary, which is helpful in covering benefits or out of pocket expenses. Maybe that's not always the case, but salaried employees usually earn 80% or less what their contract counterparts do.

And you kind of have to bomb the contract phase to not be given the offer, unless there are other circumstances at play (budgets, pandemics, etc). Hang with the team at lunch or after work if they do that, make code contributions asap, and be the kind of person any team would want to have.

C2H usually just makes it easier for them to drop you if you're (surprisingly) not a good fit - and after that kind of time and money investment, they definitely don't want to do that.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#560

Post by austinl » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 8:52 PM UTC

rsweeney21 wrote: post #448

I'm a ex-FANG dev that started a recruiting company, so I am VERY familiar with the arbitrary tech interview process. I'm a huge proponent of contract-to-hire. Even started a company* to make it easier for companies to offer contract-to-hire. Now before you dismiss the idea because you are "too good" to do C2H hear me out. Everyone knows that actually working with someone on the job is the only way to get an accurate…

My favorite interview experience of all-time was essentially a two day contract. The company listed a couple of simple tasks in their codebase that didn't need a lot of context to complete. And there was no pressure to complete all of them — it was simply, pick a couple that you think you can accomplish over two days.

I put up a few PRs, then a final assessment was a discussion that was essentially, "Now that you've seen our codebase, what are your thoughts on how we could improve our architecture, etc.?"

I was paid for my time as well (because I was legally able to accept payment at the time). I think that's actually a larger hurdle — companies that disallow contract work that prevent engineers from getting paid for this type of interviewing, although I suppose it's in their best interest.