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Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

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Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why on earth would I quit my job or take days(?) off just so I can apply for a contract position? This would be strictly for unemployed software engineers, or truly desperate ones that needed to get out of their current job ASAP.

Yeah, that's the part that sounds crazy. The benefit is you get to try them out first and you can negotiate a higher salary after you become indispensible. If it doesn't work out, you move on to the next C2H.

Right, that doesn't sound like much of a benefit to me, it sounds like a negatives. I don't think the best caliber engineers would take an offer like this, this sounds like, as I said, an option for unemployed engineers or desperate ones.

Especially in this environment, it could be weeks or months before the next C2H, especially with so many more engineers being laid off. There could be a ton of people competing for a single job.

Also, negotiated a higher salary when THEY hold the cards because now you need to find a new job? That's insane.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#492
post #377

People bomb, including good people. That is sadly part of the system. Once I had this candidate. Damn, I know my questions are deceptively simple on purpose, but he literally couldn't do anything. Not even a trivial brute force. Not even any related simple knowledge questions. Couldn't tell an average from a median. The only good thing I could write in the feedback was "seems to know some basic syntax". It was quite…

> Couldn't tell an average from a median Without meaning to attack you personally (especially in the context of the rest of your comment), a comment like this annoys me a bit. I presume by "average" you mean arithmetic mean, but the median is also an average, and depending on the context the median might be a far more useful statistic than the mean. Confusing the mean and the median is one thing, and perhaps you actu…

...I always learned in grade school math class that "average" = "mean", very specifically. I'm pretty sure there would have been test questions that required this knowledge.

It's very possible my schooling was wrong, but presumably I'm not the only one.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#493
This largely applies to people that have already produced working software in the real world, but...

Companies should trust the people applying based on their resume and ability to talk about what they have done in the past or how they would approach real world problems (organizational, interpersonal, technical). Maybe have them write some small bit of real world code using libraries and frameworks they are familiar with, while they are alone without anyone watching [key|pen]strokes.

Maybe I'm lucky but after 20 years in the industry shipping products to consumers I've never ran into a Software Developer or "Engineer" in the real world that couldn't get things done in a normal working environment in private industry (now in government, don't get me started). Some are slower, some are faster, some can handle bigger problems, but I have no idea how to reliably filter for that in an interview having tried many things.

The "OMG this senior person can't write FizzBuzz on a whiteboard or while videoconferencing and knowing someone is watching your every keystroke so they must be a horrible programmer" approach is just wrong.

I've only ever failed interviews where I had to solve problems or write code with someone watching (virtually or in person). Let me be alone and give me a product to build, though, and it'll get done. Customers will love it and it will be great. See: resume and products in the wild. The Math-oriented abstract tech interview is missing out on all the practitioners that care about the product and can build reliable maintainable systems in a team environment.

These days I'm primarily management, though, so I get to set the hiring guidelines. Yay!

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#494
post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One trend I've noticed that is markedly different from when I started programming in 1998, is how dependent we've become to program via Google/StackExchange searches. I'm not sure I know how to write anything from scratch anymore, because I just search/read/alter/test. The breadth of what I work on is 100x wider than it used to be, and so I've become absolutely dependent on quickly reading docs, copying code found on…

>Maybe we should interview with small take-home tasks to be submitted with some write-ups to test how people research, reason, and write-up problems, rather than writing code on the spot on a whiteboard. ...but maybe that's just me. I'm a huge fan of giving people tasks that somewhat resemble a real world problem they'd likely encounter or at least aligns categorically with their proclaimed resume feats and more impo…

> However, I'm usually instantly met with the "oh well we don't want to expect too much of our interview candidates" mentality as if asking them to do a "take home" (rather than telling them to figure out how to take a day off of work for an onsite panel) is somehow grotesquely disrespecting their time and would make the company look bad if the broader community even got a whiff that it had been considered. I'm so confused. People easily identify that white-boarding interviews suck for more than just the interviewee. And yet any time a solution is proposed that involves doing something other than putting the candidate in a room in front of a whiteboard for an hour, it's shot down.

I would be (and have been) one of those people. Why? In short, likely because your take-home tasks are tedious, boring, and unrepresentative of real-life work. They are not whiteboarding, but they aren't necessarily any better.

I have done take homes as a candidate, and also have reviewed them on the hiring side. Most of the time, as a candidate, any take home I have done has been wasted time. Nothing I feel like I could count as a significant contribution, or something I could add to my resume. Take homes usually have some boring cookie cutter problem, with your most nitpicky code reviewers as the judges. Or it's something that's grotesquely oversize that's expected to be done in two hours (hedging with "but feel free to use up more time if you want"). As a reviewer, I see that it also leads to candidates doing ridiculous things like overusing decorators or metaclasses in an attempt to impress the reviewers.

Honestly, as a candidate, I would be 100% satisfied with a bitesize fix to an open source library that your company maintains, or even a bitesize fix to a closed source library under contract. Or pair the candidate with an employee who is working on a real, minor task at your company, and let the candidate "drive". Give me something real to do, not some contrived situation about an ordering system or building the next Twitter.

My mini-conspiracy theory about this is that most companies are so embarrassed about their codebases and internal process that they don't let prospective employees look at them until after they are hired.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are very wrong. Every single software person I know at a FAANG spend multiple weeks studying leetcode style questions. Think about it: you are passing an exam. Why wouldn't you study the questions that you know are going to get asked? It got even worse lately since every candidate does this, it raises the bar for the expected solution.

Maybe the people you know there are not that great.

How could you say that, they work in FAANG!

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#496
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an accurate view of take home assignments. Most of the take home assignments I've done were "supposed" to take 5 hours. Most of them too around 20. The worst take home assignment I ever had was an extremely tricky brain teaser, the answer to which could not be found on google, and had to be done in the not very popular language this company used. So I not only had to write useless brain teaser code, but I cou…

Yea, I had one take home problem where the instructions stated "Please don't take more than 1 hour to solve." So, just once, I decided to hold myself to one hour, and barely managed to get to a solution that worked. During the code review in the follow-up interview, I was raked over the coals for not writing tests, failing to cover edge cases, etc. ,etc. Basically, they expected production-ready code. Didn't get the…

I’ve shared the same experience! Coming out of college every time I’d get a take home I would always blow way over the expected allotted time. They’d say it should take 5 hours and I’d end up on it for 20 since I actually had the time then.

Year’s later I did the same as you and decided to stick to the recommended time, because I really don’t want to waste my nights/weekends on this junk anymore. Working full time there’s barely any time for relaxing anyway. Sure enough, the same thing happened in review. Got absolutely shredded on my implementation. Didn’t get an offer and kind of wish they didn’t even call me back.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#497

I'm a ex-FANG dev that started a recruiting company, so I am VERY familiar with the arbitrary tech interview process. I'm a huge proponent of contract-to-hire. Even started a company* to make it easier for companies to offer contract-to-hire. Now before you dismiss the idea because you are "too good" to do C2H hear me out. Everyone knows that actually working with someone on the job is the only way to get an accurate…

Why on earth would I quit my job or take days(?) off just so I can apply for a contract position? This would be strictly for unemployed software engineers, or truly desperate ones that needed to get out of their current job ASAP.

Yea, I'm in the same boat. Absolutely no reason for me to leave a stable job (even if I don't love it) for a C2H position. There is literally zero benefit to me as an employee to do C2H.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know nothing about GP, but note that it is possible that English is not his first language, and the subtleties of the story and vocabulary might be lost in translation. In my native language (French), as you describe it, there is no word for "average" (the technical and the common terms "moyenne" are exactly the same). Until your comment, in English, I assumed you could use "average" and "mean" interchangeably.

My native language is English and I'm fluent and well educated. Although I do know that "average" covers mean, median and mode, when I was young I was not taught that way. First I was just taught "average" with a formula, and many years later "median" and "mode". I don't think I noticed the term "mean" until I learned about median and mode. You can see this reflected in scientific calculators used at school, where th…

> So far as I can tell, the common word for statistical mean is "average" in English

You're quite probably right about common parlance..

> but it's not the correct technical language.

..but as you point out it's not really appropriate in a technical context, indeed I don't think I've come across the term "average" being used in this way in technical literature; I've normally either seen expectation (for probability theoretic cases) or mean (for statistical cases).

> So nobody should be hard on themselves for not knowing the difference.

Absolutely, which is why I think being hard on someone for not knowing the difference between "the average" and the median is similarly an issue.

Re: Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills: study

#499

I'm a ex-FANG dev that started a recruiting company, so I am VERY familiar with the arbitrary tech interview process. I'm a huge proponent of contract-to-hire. Even started a company* to make it easier for companies to offer contract-to-hire. Now before you dismiss the idea because you are "too good" to do C2H hear me out. Everyone knows that actually working with someone on the job is the only way to get an accurate…

As a candidate, I'd rather get a non-insignificant RSU grant up front, with a vesting schedule that begins day 1, than play the will-I-actually-be-brought-on-full-time game.
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