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Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

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Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#261

Post by redisman »

ogre_codes wrote: post #258
m12k wrote: post #20

Transfer pricing and tax havens are draining money out of the economies of most European countries, breaking the virtuous cycle where consumer spending also leads to salaries, taxes and more investment in the community, to keep the economy going - instead we have a shrinking middle class, as the fuel is drained from the engine. Ireland, Luxembourg and certain other countries are complicit in this. We clearly need bet…

> We clearly need better tax laws to combat this, but I'm glad the commission is trying to fight this to the extent they can within current laws, and I hope they win the case on appeal. I fully agree with the former, but—to an extent—disagree with the latter. The thing that bothers me about this lawsuit is the fact that it is in essence an after-the-fact tax increase. If they want to reform tax law, then it should be…

Yes and to shut down Cayman Islands and Cyprus while they're at it. It goes to show how incredibly corrupt the global elites are that they "can't" shut down money laundering by tiny island nations who would roll over in 5 seconds if told to by someone like the US. The truth is they love it because that's where they keep their money.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#262

Post by alphadevx »

rusk wrote: post #204
robertlagrant wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is ultimately normal people as well, either buying from them or working for them.

Really? Can I write off depreciation of my assets (car, house etc) against tax?

Sure! You just need to form a company, then declare your assets as belonging to your company, and not yours.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#263

Post by thephyber »

jacobr1 wrote: post #255
thephyber wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when one happens to succeed only few people get rich, instead of what happens in the US were most employees get rich I don’t think this is accurate. Even in successful startups, most employees don’t get rich. Yes, some manage to navigate the complicated financials and can afford to execute their options, but typically only valuable roles are offered stock options and not all employees can afford to execute them. Ev…

> but typically only valuable roles are offered stock options and not all employees can afford to execute them. For early stage startups in the valley, pretty much all employees receive options. How many options, dilution and if if a positive exit will occur are all variables, but generally everyone gets an option grant.

I think I was pretty accurate in your parent comment.

Employees who don't stay long enough to vest (much or at all) don't get rich.

Employees who work in roles like office admin, security guard, janitor, intern, etc. usually aren't offered options (frequently because they are outsourced or independent contractors, etc). I'd wager that engineers, designers, and management are consistently offered options, but most other roles vary. Sales frequently insists on large cash commissions, so management probably wouldn't augment that with expensive early stock options.

There is inherent risk in owning stocks -- you need to time your exit well or a wise purchase in options/RSUs can turn into a financial liability or can significantly cut your profits if you exit the stock at the wrong time. I have a friend who exited FSLY as soon as their options execution turned to long term cap gains (resulting in a comfortable profit), but they could have more than doubled their profits (and been borderline "rich") had they stayed in until peak.

Employees don't always time their options/RSU executions well (because life is unpredictable). There is an opportunity cost to risking startup life at a lower up-front salary than working at a larger more stable company that pays more but offers no stock benefits.

Employees can't afford to execute their options/RSUs at the right time (eg. I could have owned significant CloudFlare stock if I was better at saving money while in university).

Employees don't always spend the money to gamble on options/RSUs and their tax obligations because they don't anticipate the company worth much (which can be a misperception or a lack of trust in management/owners).

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#264

Post by dang »

mdszy wrote: post #228
apta wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should corporations pay even more tax? They're paying salaries, which are subject to income tax, and stock gains are also taxed when sold. Also, any sales they generate are subject to VAT/sales tax. Not to mention property taxes for their offices, etc.

How do corporate boots taste there, bud?

We've banned this account for breaking the site guidelines and ignoring our requests to stop.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#265

Post by dmitriid »

MR4D wrote: post #231
axlee wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Workers are also a pretty big beneficiary FANNGS, by definition, are 1% of the Fortune 500. In term of headcount, it's even lower. They should not even be part of this argument. You can't base taxation policies around the personal experience of hyper-specialized, in-demand trained professionals. Fortune 500 no1: Walmart. no2? Amazon. Are you arguing that those kinds of companies have a upward pressure on salaries?…

If I use the S&P 500 instead (easier calculation given available data for me), the the FANG is a huge portion. (Yes, 5 companies out of 500 are by definition 1/100.) No argument about headcount, though. Take a look at the second chart (bottom of "Page 1", the third actual page considering the title page and contents page). [0] Revenue may be small, but profits are huge, and market capitalization (aka "wealth") is abs…

> And that market cap is what feeds retirement plans & pensions.

Market cap is a myth based on the fiction that is the share price.

> So while Europe is taxing people, the US is growing profits and wealth.

Tell that to 23 million Americans who can't afford their next rent, or can't afford to go to the doctor.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#266

Post by betaby »

balfirevic wrote: post #257
betaby wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people move from Eastern Europe to Western because the political (Russia, Belarus, Ukraine) and LGBT (Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Poland) reasons, not money.

I'm aware, but that's not related to my comment, unless you're actually claiming that programmers have lower standard of living in the western Europe compared to eastern Europe (which I believe to be false).

Belarus, Ukraine, Russia have low taxation for the salaries in IT (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarus_High_Technologies_Park) To have your own 2-3 room flat in Minsk (Capital) by the age of 35 is pretty common for Belarusian programmers and basically unheard in the West. So yes, I can argue that programmers can have higher standards of life at home than your typical "tech hub" like London, Munchen or Dublin.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#267

Post by redisman »

retube wrote: post #251
fluffy87 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main reason behind the lack of EU successful startups is that they can’t attract talent because they can’t pay employees in stock options which means that when one happens to succeed only few people get rich, instead of what happens in the US were most employees get rich and some of them go on to create beer startups. There is no such cycle in Europe, and it’s all because the lack of stock options. Without them,…

Sorry that's complete nonsense. it's routine in Europe and the UK to offer stock options. what's more you're only taxed when any gains are actually crystallised - so much more attractive / less risky than the US.

That's.. how it works in the US. I have options. I haven't paid any tax or received any actual stocks.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#268

Post by sokoloff »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #237
axlee wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Workers are also a pretty big beneficiary FANNGS, by definition, are 1% of the Fortune 500. In term of headcount, it's even lower. They should not even be part of this argument. You can't base taxation policies around the personal experience of hyper-specialized, in-demand trained professionals. Fortune 500 no1: Walmart. no2? Amazon. Are you arguing that those kinds of companies have a upward pressure on salaries?…

Agree. The most pro-Wal-Mart economists will tell you that Wal-Mart as a firm has boosted the US economy by at least 1% of GDP, by being more efficient, and forcing its competitors to be more efficient as well. Suppose for a moment that we accept that claim uncritically -- it is still very clear to see that these gains do not accrue through the vehicle of employment. Indeed, the non-logistics savings from Wal-Mart co…

There's "good for workers as workers" and "good for workers as consumers". Walmart and Amazon are very good for workers-as-consumers, IMO.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#269

Post by alphadevx »

Isamu wrote: post #192

Also Ireland is off the hook, if you remember they also disagreed with the original ruling and maintained that they were not offering special deals to various companies like Apple. Instead they benefited from the massive influx of liquidity in their banking system, and all that implies on their domestic economy. They have since reportedly closed down this option in their tax code because of optics, and they probably…

Are you sure we benefited from that "massive influx of liquidity in their banking system"? That was loans not gifts, my income tax as an Irish person has never been so high, as we will be repaying that "massive influx" for a generation, the burden we must bare to stop that bank system failure from spreading through the eurozone.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#270

Post by yashap »

Standard Ireland stuff. They want to bring jobs to Ireland, so they create international corporate tax loopholes. My understanding is these loopholes mostly allow US tech companies to make large real profits in Europe, have them attribute to an Irish office, but then bullshit the profits away by claiming things like paying licensing fees to themselves, for their own tech, paid to a subsidiary in an even sketchier tax haven. So they have zero European profits, and thus zero taxes, on paper.

This isn’t ILLEGAL, Ireland is literally creating laws to intentionally make these loopholes legal, as it gets tech companies to open offices in Ireland, and bring jobs with them. Many (myself included) consider it deeply unethical, but courts judge the laws, not the ethics, so if you’re like Apple, and basically in a position where you can write your own laws, then you won’t be found guilty in a court of law.

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