Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#221

Post by kazen44 » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 5:54 PM UTC

apta wrote: post #158

andrewstuart wrote: post #33

Here's what big tech companies don't pay their fair share of: * defence * education * infrastructure * health * etc But our political systems are so corrupt there's nothing can be done about it because they just line the pockets of the political parties who in turn make sure they never have to pay their fair share.

Why are you constraining it to "big tech"? All large companies in all fields want to avoid paying tax as much as possible.

In the end, it comes down to the amount of resources and influences different parties have in society.

Corporations have become more powerful than ever thanks to globalization. Globalisation has also reduced individual goverments power over land/resources. (this is why supranational is a thing).

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#222

Post by fluffy87 » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 5:55 PM UTC

logicchains wrote: post #38

m12k wrote: post #20

Transfer pricing and tax havens are draining money out of the economies of most European countries, breaking the virtuous cycle where consumer spending also leads to salaries, taxes and more investment in the community, to keep the economy going - instead we have a shrinking middle class, as the fuel is drained from the engine. Ireland, Luxembourg and certain other countries are complicit in this. We clearly need bet…

>Transfer pricing and tax havens are draining money out of the economies of most European countries, breaking the virtuous cycle where consumer spending also leads to salaries, taxes and more investment in the community, to keep the economy going - instead we have a shrinking middle class, as the fuel is drained from the engine. An alternative interpretation is that the high degree of taxes and regulations in Europe…

The main reason behind the lack of EU successful startups is that they can’t attract talent because they can’t pay employees in stock options which means that when one happens to succeed only few people get rich, instead of what happens in the US were most employees get rich and some of them go on to create beer startups.

There is no such cycle in Europe, and it’s all because the lack of stock options. Without them, startups only offer very low pay with little to no reward, and good luck trying to attract the top talent startups actually need to succeed.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#223

Post by kazen44 » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 5:57 PM UTC

LatteLazy wrote: post #75

Isn't the obvious answer to this an EU wide corporation tax or minimum corporation tax rate?

this would probably be a solutions yes.

Getting there politically is a hard and long process.

The EU exists partially to prevent large multinational companies from playing smaller countries against each other (by having a common market).

Personally, i think european integration is necessary to keep the continent afloat in the era of globalization. Europe is a continent that is highly fractured politically, and having smaller nations is a problem against gianst like the USA and china.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#224

Post by IgorPartola » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 5:57 PM UTC

fluffy87 wrote: post #222

logicchains wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Transfer pricing and tax havens are draining money out of the economies of most European countries, breaking the virtuous cycle where consumer spending also leads to salaries, taxes and more investment in the community, to keep the economy going - instead we have a shrinking middle class, as the fuel is drained from the engine. An alternative interpretation is that the high degree of taxes and regulations in Europe…

The main reason behind the lack of EU successful startups is that they can’t attract talent because they can’t pay employees in stock options which means that when one happens to succeed only few people get rich, instead of what happens in the US were most employees get rich and some of them go on to create beer startups. There is no such cycle in Europe, and it’s all because the lack of stock options. Without them,…

Why can’t they offer actual stock instead at that point?

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#225

Post by danhanlon » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 5:58 PM UTC

mapleshamrock wrote: post #210

danhanlon wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I think you're spot on with everything. I think some change in direction is needed for the long term but it's something we are not really seeing which is concerning. The well known MNCs seem to be here largely in an operational capacity, the majority of their workforce would be something like trust/risk/support/finance/sales. In terms of "R&D" and "innovation", work that develops the products and services that a…

I'd largely disagree. There's a huge amount of R&D and Engineering work being done in Ireland. On the hardware side Intel, Qualcomm, Huawei, HP, Analog Devices, Xilinx, Nokia Bell Labs and many more all have extensive R&D departments in Ireland. On the software side, Amazon, Microsoft, Facebook, Google etc. all have engineering roles advertised currently on Linkedin.

Admittedly not too familiar with the hardware R&D work going on here, I know Intel is largely manufacturing with a bit of development from things like the purchase of Movidius.

For the software side, what are those R&D departments actually working on? Would you really say it's R&D and product development? From what I can see, both from my own experience and from job posts, most of the engineering jobs are themselves operations related (SRE, infrastructure, customer support). I wasn't saying we don't have engineering roles in Ireland, but what we do have are not prime roles in terms of the companies products and services, and we should be looking to grow beyond facilitating company operations.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#226

Post by betaby » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 6:00 PM UTC

balfirevic wrote: post #205

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social security and healthcare is definitely awesome, but have you checked house prices near big German cities like Munich? They're much closer to Bay Area prices while salaries are very far away. Europeans who keep tooting that "we don't need US salaries" tend to be the more privileged ones who will also inherit a house from their boomer parents and take it for granted, so they don't feel the stress of the rat race…

> while in most of Europe(except the East) it does not. Wait, something doesn't add up here. I see many programmers migrating from eastern to western Europe, but not the other way around. It is true that programming as a profession will offer comparatively higher standard of living in eastern Europe (when compared to other professions), but that's because the overall standard of living is lower than it is in the west…

A lot of people move from Eastern Europe to Western because the political (Russia, Belarus, Ukraine) and LGBT (Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Poland) reasons, not money.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#227

Post by rfrey » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 6:04 PM UTC

IgorPartola wrote: post #224

fluffy87 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main reason behind the lack of EU successful startups is that they can’t attract talent because they can’t pay employees in stock options which means that when one happens to succeed only few people get rich, instead of what happens in the US were most employees get rich and some of them go on to create beer startups. There is no such cycle in Europe, and it’s all because the lack of stock options. Without them,…

Why can’t they offer actual stock instead at that point?

Then employees would need to immediately pay tax on the stock based on the last valuation.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#228

Post by mdszy » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 6:05 PM UTC

apta wrote: post #155

aosaigh wrote: post #140

Is there any concensus at all on how global corporations _should_ pay tax? These sort of cases illustrate how institutions think they _shouldn't_ handle tax, but it's not clear to me how we apply tax to a globalised economy? It's seems to be a hugely complex issue with many different stakeholders. Where is the nuanced discussion about these issues that falls somewhere between "Corps are evil" and "innovation is vital…

Why should corporations pay even more tax? They're paying salaries, which are subject to income tax, and stock gains are also taxed when sold. Also, any sales they generate are subject to VAT/sales tax. Not to mention property taxes for their offices, etc.

How do corporate boots taste there, bud?

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#229

Post by ben-schaaf » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 6:08 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #166

Isn0gud wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't really make sense to buy at this price point though. Looks like one can rent an apartment of that size for 1200 EUR a month in Munich.

Yes, but renting doesn't give you that sense of security when you are thinking of having kids versus owning your own place. When you're renting the thought of the landlord kicking you out if the rental market should suddenly shift is a huge axe to child planning for most couples. Owning you own place offers a more secure feeling and belonging to a community.

From my experience there's plenty of 'sense of security' when renting, mostly coming from very strict pro-tennant laws: Limited rent hikes, no eviction unless the tenacity agreement is breached, etc. You can't just throw out of your home because someone wants to make a quick buck, you're protected as you should be.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#230

Post by boudin » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 6:08 PM UTC

logicchains wrote: post #38

m12k wrote: post #20

Transfer pricing and tax havens are draining money out of the economies of most European countries, breaking the virtuous cycle where consumer spending also leads to salaries, taxes and more investment in the community, to keep the economy going - instead we have a shrinking middle class, as the fuel is drained from the engine. Ireland, Luxembourg and certain other countries are complicit in this. We clearly need bet…

>Transfer pricing and tax havens are draining money out of the economies of most European countries, breaking the virtuous cycle where consumer spending also leads to salaries, taxes and more investment in the community, to keep the economy going - instead we have a shrinking middle class, as the fuel is drained from the engine. An alternative interpretation is that the high degree of taxes and regulations in Europe…

I'm not sure it's a bad thing... Most of the taxes aren't paid by big companies that can optimise everything at a world level but by the multitude of much smaller companies. If you would replace Apple, Google, or Amazon by a multitude of smaller companies, they would pay taxes.