Why is the Fessenheim 2 nuclear power plant closing in France? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why is the Fessenheim 2 nuclear power plant closing in France?

#21

Post by dv_dt » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

freeflight wrote: post #12

It's weird of the article gives plenty of direct citations from nuclear operators, while at the same time acting like French 40+ year old fission tech doesn't have any issues [0] or sustainability problems, and how the French could dare to shut down one of their first reactors. Particularly in the context that most discussions surrounding nuclear fission power generation lead with "modern designs and reactors being s…

It's moving slow, but France does have planning working through how to manage nuclear going forward. Replacment with renewables as studied by the French gov't seems not only promising but cost effective.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-10/french-po...

Re: Why is the Fessenheim 2 nuclear power plant closing in France?

#22

Post by morsch » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

cjblomqvist wrote: post #7

This article sounds too bad to be true in my ears. For example, Germany is shutting down their coal plants gradually until 2038 (why would they then commission one this year, as stated by the article?). I agree it sounds stupid to shut it down prematurely, and I agree the green movement (at least here in Sweden, and apparently also in France) is many times doing stupid things that actually harm the environment, but t…

> why would they then commission one this year, as stated by the article

Unfortunately, that really happened[1]. Commission as in started running, not as in started constructing, which they did in 2007. The usual argument is that a modern coal power plant replaces older ones and more efficient/less polluting. Obviously, it's all very controversial.

[1] https://www.dw.com/en/climate-activists-protest-germanys-new...

Re: Why is the Fessenheim 2 nuclear power plant closing in France?

#23

Post by Mirioron » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

freeflight wrote: post #12

It's weird of the article gives plenty of direct citations from nuclear operators, while at the same time acting like French 40+ year old fission tech doesn't have any issues [0] or sustainability problems, and how the French could dare to shut down one of their first reactors. Particularly in the context that most discussions surrounding nuclear fission power generation lead with "modern designs and reactors being s…

What are the consequences of the inevitable natural gas or coal power plant that will replace it? There's always a lot of talk about renewables, yet it seems that we still end up with a fossil fuel based powerplant. It's not like France is building new nuclear plants to replace the ones that are shutting down.

Re: Why is the Fessenheim 2 nuclear power plant closing in France?

#24

Post by exabrial » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 5:35 PM UTC

> Put differently, in 2019 Fessenheim Unit 1 and 2 generated more electricity than all the solar panels in France combined

I learned a term recently called "base load supply". Essentially, something like a nuclear plant is hard to ramp/up down with changing grid demands, but it great at steady-state operation and can run like that for years. This takes care of the minimum load placed on the grid which is fairly predictable.

Nuclear strengths' play an important role in an "all of the above" approach.

Re: Why is the Fessenheim 2 nuclear power plant closing in France?

#25

Post by eqvinox » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 5:35 PM UTC

steeve wrote: post #20

eqvinox wrote: post #3

actual answer: it's right on the border to Germany and has a long history of low-level incidents, and the Germans were starting to get seriously pissed off at that. It's also the oldest nuclear power plant France was still running. Oh and also the Rhine valley is seismically active, even if only at a low level.

> has a long history of low-level incidents If you actually bothered to read the ASN reports, you'd see that it's because it was one of the most transparent plant, hence the higher numbers. > Rhine valley is seismically active It is, which is why it was scaled for several times the biggest ever earthquake recorded (1365 IIRC, they derived the scale from models based on the damages it did). ASN deemed its security "ve…

All of your arguments might be correct, and none of them matter to public opinion and politics. Maybe if they were less transparent, there would have been less political pressure from Germany...

And I totally agree this is as dumb as it gets.

Re: Why is the Fessenheim 2 nuclear power plant closing in France?

#26

Post by outworlder » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

WilTimSon wrote: post #17

sleazy_b wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A review of the plant’s page on Wikipedia shows that it did indeed have a number of low level incidents. Do you have any sources about those being the true cause of the shutdown?

I feel like, regardless of what the cause is, having numerous low-level incidents means it's not exactly "safe" as the title of the article suggests. Another user has commented that the plant is nearly 100 years old while the reactors are supposed to last only 40 years before being replaced.

Depends what's classified by an "incident". Aviation has "incidents" all the time. And yet we are not grounding planes based on this. We learn about them, and improve.

Re: Why is the Fessenheim 2 nuclear power plant closing in France?

#27

Post by anoncake » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

cjblomqvist wrote: post #7

This article sounds too bad to be true in my ears. For example, Germany is shutting down their coal plants gradually until 2038 (why would they then commission one this year, as stated by the article?). I agree it sounds stupid to shut it down prematurely, and I agree the green movement (at least here in Sweden, and apparently also in France) is many times doing stupid things that actually harm the environment, but t…

> For example, Germany is shutting down their coal plants gradually until 2038 (why would they then commission one this year, as stated by the article?).

Corruption? Stupidity? At any rate, the article is right.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https...

Re: Why is the Fessenheim 2 nuclear power plant closing in France?

#28

Post by fcantournet » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

freeflight wrote: post #12

It's weird of the article gives plenty of direct citations from nuclear operators, while at the same time acting like French 40+ year old fission tech doesn't have any issues [0] or sustainability problems, and how the French could dare to shut down one of their first reactors. Particularly in the context that most discussions surrounding nuclear fission power generation lead with "modern designs and reactors being s…

We have a independent national authority (ASN ~ Nuclear Safety Authority) which is tasked to assess the security of all nuclear power plants and certifies them for periods of 10y.

The plant that is being closed was certified by the ASN. The 40y lifespan was the MINIMUM certified lifespan of the power plant. It could very well run for another 40y. These kinds of equipment are modernised every 10 years during the shudowns. The power plant itself is NOT the one that was built 40y ago.

Re: Why is the Fessenheim 2 nuclear power plant closing in France?

#29

Post by freeflight » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 5:38 PM UTC

cjblomqvist wrote: post #7

This article sounds too bad to be true in my ears. For example, Germany is shutting down their coal plants gradually until 2038 (why would they then commission one this year, as stated by the article?). I agree it sounds stupid to shut it down prematurely, and I agree the green movement (at least here in Sweden, and apparently also in France) is many times doing stupid things that actually harm the environment, but t…

> why would they then commission one this year, as stated by the article?

The answer being that it was originally commissioned decades ago, construction started 2007 and was supposed to be finished in 2011, its purpose is to replace three older blocks from the 60s which were put offline in 2014 [0].

Putting 3 old blocks offline to replace them with one modern block looks like a rather good progress.

Tho, those small steps just doen't sit well with the current popular narrative of "Let's end all fossil fuel use instantly and replace it with fission reactors everywhere!". As if changes and projects like that wouldn't take decades to retool whole industries and infrastructure.

[0] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraftwerk_Datteln

Re: Why is the Fessenheim 2 nuclear power plant closing in France?

#30

Post by Mirioron » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 5:39 PM UTC

dv_dt wrote: post #21

freeflight wrote: post #12

It's weird of the article gives plenty of direct citations from nuclear operators, while at the same time acting like French 40+ year old fission tech doesn't have any issues [0] or sustainability problems, and how the French could dare to shut down one of their first reactors. Particularly in the context that most discussions surrounding nuclear fission power generation lead with "modern designs and reactors being s…

It's moving slow, but France does have planning working through how to manage nuclear going forward. Replacment with renewables as studied by the French gov't seems not only promising but cost effective. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-10/french-po...

These stories are always very nice and the plants cost effective, but are they true? Pakistan had a 100MW solar powerplant built for them. It actually ended up producing 18MW and required extensive amounts of water to clean the dust off of the panels.[0] I'm sure they were also told that renewables are cheap and will be great, but somehow everyone missed this.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaid-e-Azam_Solar_Park