Earlier quoted context omitted.
>All Tesla vehicles have the hardware needed in the future for full self-driving in almost all circumstances Probably true. >Summon: your parked car will come find you anywhere in a parking lot. Really. It does. Poorly but it's gotten a lot better. >Tesla will be able to make its vehicles completely autonomous by the end of this year, founder Elon Musk has said. A CEO making optimistic projections. Where are these li…
These are all optimistic projections stated as fact. I think we simply disagree on whether to call that a lie.
German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving
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Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving
#572Earlier quoted context omitted.
Feels like, yes, if you go by what the commenter you are replying to said. But read the page for yourself before deciding. It is not as the commenter described.
If you are claiming that the comment is deceptive, you should point out why we should regard it as such. My objection to this statement is that it is one side of a deeply inconsistent, two-faced message from Tesla. Specifically, the two faces are "it can drive itself - the driver is only there for legal reasons" and "the driver must be attentive and ready to respond to any errors immediately, and is responsible for w…
The confusing thing is Elon and Tesla both share a lot of information about timelines for prototype technology. "In six months it will do x" kind of statements.
The two faces you are confused by have names. The first face is prototype technology. The second face is shipping cars that we regular consumers can drive.
All the confusion can be cleared up by simply asking yourself, for each statement, which of these are they talking about in the current context?
Keeping in mind that both prototypes and current shipping cars can appear sometimes in the same context, such as that web page. It takes a bit of discernment and careful reading.
If you (general you, not you in particular) are predisposed to assume Elon is a massively deceptive fraudster who is constantly lying and hyping, then it's convenient to overlook that these two faces have a perfectly logical division that fits reality and makes everything consistent.
That is what a lot of people do. They overlook the fact that both Elon and Tesla need to lay out their vision for what is coming in the future. When Elon and Tesla talk about this stuff, they often need to talk about prototype technology. They often make it clear when they are doing this. I mean, look at the web page. The words are there. It does say "future" and "current cars don't have this blah blah" (although Elon in his interviews doesn't do as good of a job, it's often obvious with a moment's thought that he's talking about prototypes, to those of us who are familiar with the fact that there will be a multi-year regulatory process before whatever feature he mentions will come out).
I guess the problem is that technology is complex. Self driving cars are another level of complex because of the context in which they are situated, amongst other cars and drivers who need to learn to deal with the new robo drivers. Socially complex. Legally complex. Complex environments. Complex timelines. Complex rollouts. Complex technology evolution. You don't just flip a switch with this stuff and turn it on one day, because of the education aspects where other drivers are going to be in the picture. People aren't used to this level of complexity. Elon can't spell all this stuff out in every answer to every interview question. It's up to you to understand this.
Average drivers of a Tesla don't need to understand all the complexity. They just need to understand that the current system requires them to be attentive and ready to take over at any time. Tesla makes this abundantly clear in many ways, including on the web site, during the sales process, during delivery, and with active messaging and interventions while driving if the driver does not get it.
Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving
#573Earlier quoted context omitted.
Really? You're guna bet against Elon Musk? You really think that's wise? XD
Betting against Elon is a fools errand not because he's right, but because he's built a personality cult around himself.
Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving
#574On the other hand, Tesla doesn't come close to driving an Audi, BMW or MB. Neither tech-wise. It might be the choice for the nerd or the socalled envitonmentalist, but for people that don't have time for reloading batteries all the time, it's a toy car.
Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving
#575Earlier quoted context omitted.
Counterpoint: Elon Musk is the only (publicly visible) CEO who is seriously talking about going to Mars and direct interfacing between machines and humans and making tangible steps toward these futuristic goals. His rockets are [mostly] not exploding, his cars are selling to [mostly] good reviews, and neuralink seems to be doing something too. Perhaps his cult of personality is deserved because although he (along wit…
I don't know. Many people who "hate" the guy tend to freely acknowledge his very real accomplishments.
Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving
#576Earlier quoted context omitted.
Counterpoint: Elon Musk is the only (publicly visible) CEO who is seriously talking about going to Mars and direct interfacing between machines and humans and making tangible steps toward these futuristic goals. His rockets are [mostly] not exploding, his cars are selling to [mostly] good reviews, and neuralink seems to be doing something too. Perhaps his cult of personality is deserved because although he (along wit…
I don't think that anyone is arguing that Musk hasn't done big things. The problem is, he's about 50/50 on how often the big things he does are actually good . This is completely ignored by his fanboys, who ignore the bad, and laud the good to an extent that's entirely untethered from reality. Take your post for example: You soften the word "lied" to "overpromised" and then slowly build to more and more absurd lavish…
Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving
#577Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am honestly not sure how to interpret your comment but I'll try to respond. The fault is not with the AP. That's just a computer doing what it was programmed to do. It's with how the system is presented by the people selling it. The marketing is intentionally deceptive for profit and people died for believing it. And Germany didn't ban the system, they banned the deception. If Wells Fargo or Comcast did the same pi…
I think the parent poster is trying to make the point that it's unreasonable to ask people to pay attention. In any case the fault is most certainly not merely marketing, it's a fundamental design flaw. You cannot expect people to maintain constant attention when that attention almost never leads to anything; people simply aren't capable of that. That's also why similarly "boring" tasks are so failure prone (e.g. htt…
>the fraudulent advertising
purported / alleged. The claims of this have been debunked.
Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving
#578Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wonder why Tesla even needed to go that far to make the product sell. It is already a damn good car, a leader in its space. Also, Waymo which was closest at that time to Level 5 autonomy was far off from a product.
There is a reason no new manufacturers have succeeded in the past 100 years. Auto industry is tough and costly. Autopilot almost certainly gave them press and coverage that has helped sell cars and keep the company from collapsing. If a future promise is what it took to drive the battery revolution, it was a reasonable cost.
The bigger issue (for Tesla at least) is what happens to Tesla if they don't deliver the promised autonomy now in a reasonable timescale. Company itself still isn't all that independently secure, yet to turn an _annual_ profit etc. It feels to me like the recent surge in their value is driven by over-enthusiastic investors hopeful that one day all those Model 3s on the road become autonomous revenue generating entities (driverless cabs etc), which I still can't personally foresee happening anytime soon.
I own a Model 3 - the cabin alone, while nice enough, wouldn't stand up to more than a few months "shared" use IMO, ignoring all the other technical barriers. If these things really become shared, we are going to have to seriously rethink cabin design and materials. The kind of cabin a private buyer expects when spending 35k plus on a car today simply isn't going to last a bunch of drunk kids autonomously Ubering, even more so when you consider a long range Model 3 is approx $50k today.
Despite my own misgivings about how autopilot is conveyed to users, I still find it to be a really competent auto steer system on highways, which of course is a relatively simple use case for these systems to excel in. Ford's decision to brand their competing system in the forthcoming Mustang Mach E "CoPilot" feels far more appropriate. Ford aren't as dependent on hype for short term survival though.
Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving
#579Earlier quoted context omitted.
> next year this year https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2020/07/09/elon-mu...
2014: in a year https://www.theverge.com/2014/10/2/6894875/elon-musk-says-ne... 2015: in two years https://fortune.com/2015/12/21/elon-musk-interview/ 2016: in a year https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-autonomous-tesla-d... 2017: in two years https://electrek.co/2017/12/08/elon-musk-tesla-self-driving-... 2018: in a year https://electrek.co/2018/03/11/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-self-driv... 2019: in a year https://ww…
Link 1: "will probably"
Link 2: "I think"
Link 3: "He said he expected…" and "It is not possible to know exactly when each element of the functionality described above will be available"
Link 4: "He predicts"
Link 5: "He thinks"
Link 6: "I think"
And in some of these he's not talking about production cars, but is talking about prototype vehicles in Tesla's development fleet.
Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving
#580Earlier quoted context omitted.
> After about 20mph tire noise drowns out engine noise. This has been claimed over and over and is possibly true in some test scenarios but not in any real situation. Noise is additive, the engine noise may not be clearly audible, but tire+engine noise is always louder than just tire noise. And any time an ICE actually revs up, it's clearly audible at any high speed.
Luxury cars have a lot of sound dampening, so engine noise is hardly an issue. A Royce Royce Phantom has a v12 but is more quiet than a Tesla.