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Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

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121–130 of 485 posts

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#121
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European developers don't need to live in areas though, where they have to pay 2 million dollars for a house and they have social security and health care. This lessens your argument.

I live and work in Munich and I have to pay half a million euros for a 25m^2 box. EU is cheaper than US is a fallacy.

Wow, really? 20000 EUR per square meter, for small apartment in Munich? That's... more than I expected.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#122
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Given a fixed amount of resources People don't consume resources, they consume goods and services. The IPhone is valued at a much higher price than the sum of raw resource components it contains. Economic growth is what allows us to increase the amount of goods and services people can consume from a given set of resources. Economic growth is why a single farmer with modern equipment can produce more food than a hund…

Using resources as a blanket term to describe goods and services as fungible with a market that can trade them, it's probably a better descriptor of available goods and services that can be consumed instead of the fluctuating cost of said goods and services. True we could produce more goods than we have before with a lower cost, but it isn't true that this enables us to provide more to those without means as this wou…

Economic growth and technical innovation go hand in hand. As the economy grows the pie gets bigger, as long as everyones absolute amount grows thats good - most people thing that some are shrinking which is not the case. Right now, some peoples are growing at faster rate.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#123
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the benefits of a fortune 500? Who are the beneficiaries? The main ones would be investors and management, including a subset of employees. Given the tax loopholes that are often taken advantage of, I would hardly say that the countries or cities they reside in are beneficiaries in as far as tax income, though they definitely have a hub effect of drawing people into the locations they are in. Whether that is…

>What are the benefits of a fortune 500? Who are the beneficiaries? The main ones would be investors and management, including a subset of employees. Workers are also a pretty big beneficiary: look how well workers at recent Fortune 500 entries like FAANG are paid. Even after accounting for subsidised health and education benefits the average European developer is still lucky to earn even half of what the average US…

> Workers are also a pretty big beneficiary

FANNGS, by definition, are 1% of the Fortune 500. In term of headcount, it's even lower. They should not even be part of this argument. You can't base taxation policies around the personal experience of hyper-specialized, in-demand trained professionals.

Fortune 500 no1: Walmart. no2? Amazon.

Are you arguing that those kinds of companies have a upward pressure on salaries? Because at least in the case of Walmart and Amazon (excluding AWS), it's proven that it doesn't. And in terms of workforce, the low-pay employees that those companies hire overwhelm "well-paid" engineers from FAANGS a 1000-1. And that's not even accouting for all "red badge" contractors not lucky enough to get a cosy position at those FAANGS, who don't appear in the company's salary statistics, and are not in such a good financial situation themselves.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#124
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What are the benefits of a fortune 500? Who are the beneficiaries? The main ones would be investors and management, including a subset of employees. Workers are also a pretty big beneficiary: look how well workers at recent Fortune 500 entries like FAANG are paid. Even after accounting for subsidised health and education benefits the average European developer is still lucky to earn even half of what the average US…

European developers don't need to live in areas though, where they have to pay 2 million dollars for a house and they have social security and health care. This lessens your argument.

A developer in low-cost Houston, Texas still makes double or triple of what a developer in Paris, France makes.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#125
post #5

Irish media spinning this as a win for the irish people, while there are ongoing talks of increasing income tax on normal people to help cover the cost of this pandemic. Disgraceful.

It sort of is. And isn't. It's a helluva mess we've got ourselves into.

Ireland has built its modern economy on being attractive to multinationals. And it's worked. 10 MNCs alone pay 40% of all tax revenue in the country. They've brought jobs and wealth to a country that was previously big in dairy & emigration.

For the generation above me, the career path was study, leave, earn your money elsewhere - and perhaps come home one day to start a family. Perhaps. For the generation below me, they can go straight from Uni to FAANG (maybe FAAMG? I think msft are bigger than netflix in Dublin), startups, or elsewhere in the booming tech & pharma sectors.

Pandering to MNCs was a good strategy. It paid off. But it's not sustainable - no-one actually wants to win a race to the bottom.

I'm not sure biting the hand that feeds us is the best step to make right now though. We need to diversify first. We need to encourage home-grown talent. We need to wean the MNCs off their tax strategies slow enough that we don't startle them, etc.

Like it or not we are currently intertwined. That needs to be solved first - otherwise we just turn the tap off and return to the 80s.

(Yes I'm biased: I work for an MNC that probably wouldn't be here without this strategy. Without this strategy, I wouldn't be living here.)

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#126
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US had also emerged as pretty much the only unbombed industrial country after a global war, giving it a significant advantage Ding-ding-ding - you hit the nail on the head! The US' competitive advantage and special position in the world, including all those fortune 500 companies, doesn't come from its special adherence to laissez-faire capitalism, it comes from other historic advantages. The supply-side trickle…

>Here's a very non-random book I found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_in_the_Twenty-First_Ce... According to Wikipedia, that book makes the argument that economic equality will grow over time. It doesn't show that countries with more economic freedom grow slower. To copy from the "Criticisms" section of that wiki page: " According to Financial Times columnist Martin Wolf, he merely assumes that inequality mat…

The danger of inequality is not something new, and the problem isn't that someone is super-rich, the problem is that median purchasing power is going down, because economic growth is not going into the hands of the lower and middle class, and this is causing demand to fall in the market, leading to an inevitable economic downturn. The dangers of this were discovered a century ago during the Great Depression, and are well understood and not really considered controversial anymore: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live and work in Munich and I have to pay half a million euros for a 25m^2 box. EU is cheaper than US is a fallacy.

Wow, really? 20000 EUR per square meter, for small apartment in Munich? That's... more than I expected.

Even if it's half cheaper, a family house of 80-100m^2 costs beyond 600K which is way beyond affordability range of a couple both working as software engineers let alone people with non-tech jobs.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#128
post #20

Transfer pricing and tax havens are draining money out of the economies of most European countries, breaking the virtuous cycle where consumer spending also leads to salaries, taxes and more investment in the community, to keep the economy going - instead we have a shrinking middle class, as the fuel is drained from the engine. Ireland, Luxembourg and certain other countries are complicit in this. We clearly need bet…

Perhaps lowering taxes is the answer. Why pay sky-high French taxes when you could pay lower taxes in Ireland?

Unless we want international trade to be a one-way process that slowly drains the middle class dry, and triggers the next recession when demand drops to zero, then it is probably better to make sure that whenever a company makes money by selling to consumers, enough money is re-circulated back into that country to maintain the purchasing power of those consumers. (That seems to be a core part of China's strategy, protecting their inner market from outsiders, and they're doing pretty well economically compared to most of the world)

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#129
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't paid in the US. The purpose of the scheme that Apple (and other companies) were using was to protect profits from US taxes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement

Yes, it was. Their arrangement only helped them defer US taxes, but the taxes were paid when the money was repatriated. https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-to-pay-38-billion-in-repa...

No, as your link says it wasn't. Only part of the taxes were paid when the money was repatriated:

> A provision allows for a one-time repatriation of corporate cash held abroad at a lower tax rate than what would have been paid under the previous tax plan.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/17/technology/apple-tax-bill...

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

companies don't pay VAT because they claim it back on everything they buy they do however collect it

They pay VAT on the value they add between what they buy and what they sell. Hence, Value-Added Tax.

no they don't, they collect it, but the consumer pays it

this is the entire principle behind VAT

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