Earlier quoted context omitted.
16%. Niiiice.
The federal corporate tax rate is 21% so its pretty close.
Can you give me 5% of your income?
Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned
101–110 of 485 posts
Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you sure? I think that countries that benefit from such schemes (e.g. Ireland, Netherlands, Luxembourg) can veto, sink such proposals before they land, or simply partially comply. For instance, the Netherlands announced a withholding tax on royalties for 2021 "for cases where abuse is involved" [1] after international pressure. The way I read this is that they are building a facade where it looks they are complyi…
There are countries that benefit from it, and they can veto. However, the reality is... realpolitik still exists. If Germany and France decide things should really change, what negotiating power do you think the Netherlands or Luxembourg or Ireland really have? For example the Dutch economy is basically hitched to the German one, Germany can find a lot of creative ways to inflict a lot of pain on the Netherlands if i…
Alliances vary according to the issue. Germany and France are often at loggerheads. France has a particular beef with with Ireland's 12% corporation tax rate but agrees with it on lots of other issues such as agriculture and the measures concerning the pandemic. Ireland passed up on a chance to join the Hanseatic league[1] because in some ways it is not as "Northern European" in outlook as he likes of Finland and the Netherlands.
[1]Seems I was wrong about this
Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned
#103Earlier quoted context omitted.
>The US experienced massive growth in the 50s and 60s while having very high tax rates. The effective rate actually paid by the top 1% was around 42%, which is not much higher than now: https://taxfoundation.org/taxes-on-the-rich-1950s-not-high/ . . The US had also emerged as pretty much the only unbombed industrial country after a global war, giving it a significant advantage. >so thoroughly debunked by now Debunked…
> The US had also emerged as pretty much the only unbombed industrial country after a global war, giving it a significant advantage Ding-ding-ding - you hit the nail on the head! The US' competitive advantage and special position in the world, including all those fortune 500 companies, doesn't come from its special adherence to laissez-faire capitalism, it comes from other historic advantages. The supply-side trickle…
>Here's a very non-random book I found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_in_the_Twenty-First_Ce...
According to Wikipedia, that book makes the argument that economic equality will grow over time. It doesn't show that countries with more economic freedom grow slower. To copy from the "Criticisms" section of that wiki page:
" According to Financial Times columnist Martin Wolf, he merely assumes that inequality matters, but never explains why. He only demonstrates that it exists and how it worsens.[36] Or as his colleague Clive Crook put it: "Aside from its other flaws, Capital in the 21st Century invites readers to believe not just that inequality is important, but that nothing else matters. This book wants you to worry about low growth in the coming decades not because that would mean a slower rise in living standards, but because it might ... worsen inequality." "
>Also, do I really need to remind you that correlation is not the same as causation?
Indeed, fortunately we also have economic models suggesting such a relationship should exist so it's not just blind correlation.
Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned
#104Earlier quoted context omitted.
I mean, their products aren't that great. Their desktop lineup is quite frankly rubbish.
i haven't seen a desktop without internal wires other than Mac Pro
Single board computers are numerous, mostly but not entirely at the low end, and no cabled interconnects is the defining trait of the class.
The reason we don't see as much of this in full-size desktops is because density is clearly not the objective and it would mean sacrificing the modularity and flexibility of established standards.
Or in other words, more expensive with no real gain besides aesthetics, which aren't worthless but I'd bet they aren't worth _much_ for a box which spends most of its time under a desk concealing its insides.
Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned
#105Earlier quoted context omitted.
I just compiled a list with companies paying more tax willingly: If companies were allowed to murder people, I would feel staunchly more endangered.... but seriously, Ireland has lash tax laws to lure these giants into their country, this is no secret, we have several countries within the EU engaging in similar strategies. I didn't say that the amount of taxes Apple pays isn't morally questionable. But you would stil…
Finding moral companies that doesn't do unethical things to avoid tax is not hard. I'd claim that the absolute vast majority don't.
Well true, it would be unfair to put them all in one basket. But still, there is little use complaining about Apple (I don't usually hold back criticism here). We should hold those responsible creating these laws.
Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned
#106> “This case was not about how much tax we pay, but where we are required to pay it," Apple said in a statement. "We're proud to be the largest taxpayer in the world as we know the important role tax payments play in society." That’s a really beautiful example of spinning the story of what’s going on.
Apple pays an effective rate of 21% on foreign earnings, 35% on income earned from cash invested outside the US and over $10bn in corporate taxes overall. That doesn't include property taxes, payroll taxes, VAT, etc, etc. They are the biggest tax payer in the world. The conventional view is that Apple pays no tax, Ive seen that asserted on HN many times, but it's just flat out not true. If you wan to say the above is…
It is true about Amazon, though, and I’ve seen Amazon mentioned far more often than Apple in this regard.
Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Who are the beneficiaries? Literally any entity they interact with. And F500's interact a lot with a lot of entities!
As long as there is shareholder before stakeholder, I don't see this as a good argument. Take Amazon. Employees in warehouses are low wage and hire and fire jobs. The CEO is getting richer and richer, not everyone is profiting as well as it could be. What Europe would need is to excel in computer science as well as design and engineering. The topic is pretty lacking here and would need a push. The result would be com…
I feel like this argument lacks a full understanding of what 'net worth' even means.
Bezos is not taking enough cash from Amazon to be even remotely relevant to what they pay their warehouse workers. His cash compensation in 2019 was 1.6 million. Not sure how that reflects in 2020, 2021, but the point is that Bezos is only absurdly rich in theory He is theoretically worth hundreds of billions- but his actual consumption of goods, services, resources is a tiny percentage of that.
There is no direct link between Bezos net worth and allocation of resources to laborers, and attempts to paint that picture are misguided.
You criticize Amazon for their 'low paying' jobs- do you really understand the space these jobs exist in? I've worked warehouse gigs in college. I'm sure the Amazon jobs suck- but their minimum wage is what my supervisor got paid at a small building supply company. Amazon is actually considered a high paying gig in that arena.
Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned
#108> “This case was not about how much tax we pay, but where we are required to pay it," Apple said in a statement. "We're proud to be the largest taxpayer in the world as we know the important role tax payments play in society." That’s a really beautiful example of spinning the story of what’s going on.
Apple pays an effective rate of 21% on foreign earnings, 35% on income earned from cash invested outside the US and over $10bn in corporate taxes overall. That doesn't include property taxes, payroll taxes, VAT, etc, etc. They are the biggest tax payer in the world. The conventional view is that Apple pays no tax, Ive seen that asserted on HN many times, but it's just flat out not true. If you wan to say the above is…
companies don't pay VAT because they claim it back on everything they buy
they do however collect it
Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
>What are the benefits of a fortune 500? Who are the beneficiaries? The main ones would be investors and management, including a subset of employees. Workers are also a pretty big beneficiary: look how well workers at recent Fortune 500 entries like FAANG are paid. Even after accounting for subsidised health and education benefits the average European developer is still lucky to earn even half of what the average US…
European developers don't need to live in areas though, where they have to pay 2 million dollars for a house and they have social security and health care. This lessens your argument.
Social security and healthcare is definitely awesome, but have you checked house prices near big German cities like Munich? They're much closer to Bay Area prices while salaries are very far away.
Europeans who keep tooting that "we don't need US salaries" tend to be the more privileged ones who will also inherit a house from their boomer parents and take it for granted, so they don't feel the stress of the rat race with skyrocketing house prices and income inequality.
So no, we DO want better paying jobs and lower taxes otherwise we'll go back to a feudalistic society where a select few own the housing and means of production through inheritance and everyone else and their offspring will forever be stuck working for the upper class so they can consume their products and pay them rent.
In most of the US, learning leet-code offers one a meritocratic lift up to the upper class while in most of Europe(except the East) it does not.
Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yet happiness, productivity, and lifespan are all higher in Europe. Regulation is different, and in some areas less. Who are you optimizing for?
Going by https://time.com/4621185/worker-productivity-countries/ , the US is more productive than most countries in Europe. Going by https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2017/ , figure 2.2, the US is happier than the majority of European countries. >Who are you optimizing for? I'm not trying to optimise for anything, rather I'd prefer people are given the chance to optimise for themselves how they spend their time and mo…
A quote from that World Happiness Report you just linked to:
"Happiness has fallen in America
The USA is a story of reduced happiness. In 2007 the USA ranked 3rd among the OECD countries; in 2016 it came 19th. The reasons are declining social support and increased corruption (chapter 7) and it is these same factors that explain why the Nordic countries do so much better."
> I'm not trying to optimise for anything, rather I'd prefer people are given the chance to optimise for themselves how they spend their time and money, and the less bureaucracy they have to deal with, the easier it is for them to do this.
You've bought into the propaganda propagated by the ultra rich via cable news and other outlets in order to justify their continued accrual of more and more of the world's wealth: That economic freedom is just freedom from taxes - it's not freedom from ever worrying about going bankrupt or becoming homeless if you get sick. That society works better when nobody cares about the well-being of their fellow citizens, that the freedom to care about nobody but yourself somehow makes us stronger as a society, not weaker. That publicly run institutions are always just 'bureacracies' and 'inefficient' - not the solid foundations upon which other parts of society and the market can rest, which many public institutions prove every day, by freeing citizens and companies that rely on them from having to pay for one or more layers of shareholder profits, freeing them to invest in other things instead. The talking points you are reiterating sound good on their surface, but in reality they are just that, talking points. The reality of what the world becomes when they are used as policy is being felt all around the world these days.