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U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

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Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#181

Post by aripickar »

generationP wrote: post #139
ngngngng wrote: post #104

A well known religious University near me just started offering "in person" (wink wink) classes where attendance would not be taken. I was proud to see it.

Actually, most universities don't take attendance. It's a waste of time, it punishes pro-social behavior (there is no good reason for people feeling sick to go to class), and it's infantilizing. "Attendance required" often means "we will notice if you never attend, and then will feel less bad failing you if you don't do your homework either".

If my 2000 person intro to computer science class required roll call, not only would everyone not fit in the lecture hall, but attendance would take the whole class period.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#182

Post by throwawaygh »

I'm not relieved. Or, only partially relieved.

One of the core arguments was that the Feds can't pull funds for their stated purpose, which was to encourage/force schools to open ("The government has provided no reason for its abrupt and unexplained shift. That is unsurprising, since... its purpose—as expressed by Acting Deputy Secretary of Homeland Security Ken Cuccinelli—is to 'encourage schools to reopen.' In essence, Defendants are using the vulnerability of international students as leverage to force a broad reopening for reasons wholly disconnected from the underlying statute and regulation... Defendants have thus violated the APA by promulgating a policy based on factors which Congress has not intended it to consider.").

I think there's a good chance that the admin backed down here so that there's no pre-existing precedent implying (or explicitly stating) that they can't use purse strings and other extra-congressional-intent mechanisms to force K12 to open in August.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#183

Post by SonOfKyuss »

TechBro8615 wrote: post #50
ardit33 wrote: post #7

Is this administration very incompetent, or very sadistic? If they rescinded the order, means they: 1) Didn't think through the consequences, or the legality of the order. 2) They just wanted to crate some chaos, and mess up with the foreign kids, while posturing to their base 3) Force universities to stay open in the middle of the pandemic in order to help Trump's reelection bid... (not sure how breakouts of covid i…

It's a combination of #2 and #3. The Trump administration has a strategy that should be very clear by now: implement or propose outlandish policy, then use it as leverage for gains in some orthogonal area while walking it back. This is deal-making 101, Trump (or his ghost-writer) writes about it in all his books, and it's an obvious trend. He uses this tact in domestic policy and trade deals, and tbh it's pretty effe…

It is effective for short-term gains, but it also causes so much chaos and destruction that it isn’t sustainable long-term (see: Trump bankruptcies)

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#184

Post by perl4ever »

monkeyfacebag wrote: post #144
quadrifoliate wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, in some ways this was the perfect outcome for that kind of posturing. Anecdotally, it seems to me that an actual drop in international student numbers would likely have hurt colleges in Republican-controlled states worse than Democrat-controlled ones. American students armed with student loans would still flock to top universities to make up for the international student shortfall, and I can't think of a top 10…

I wanted to kick out the students but I wasn't able to convince the deep state so re-elect me isn't the most compelling campaign message under any scenario.

That's assuming that the way things work is you appeal to voters who desire certain policies and someone to implement them. Whether or not you agree, it seems to be a thing these days to argue that the Republican party has transcended that.

See: https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/349155/post-poli...

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#185

Post by pnw_hazor »

throwawaygh wrote: post #182

I'm not relieved. Or, only partially relieved. One of the core arguments was that the Feds can't pull funds for their stated purpose, which was to encourage/force schools to open ("The government has provided no reason for its abrupt and unexplained shift. That is unsurprising, since... its purpose—as expressed by Acting Deputy Secretary of Homeland Security Ken Cuccinelli—is to 'encourage schools to reopen.' In esse…

I think they backed down because the language of the emergency rule lifting the in-person course requirement said it would remain “in effect for the duration of the emergency.”

The Covid-19 National Emergency Declaration is still in force.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Trump admin is working on an Executive Order. It would get around a lot of the arguments Harvard/MIT were making related to improper administrative rule-making by ICE.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#186

Post by RHSeeger »

lefrenchy wrote: post #112

Such an embarrassing blunder, of many blunders, for this administration.

I was under the impression that the law that was already in place was that purely online courses were not allowed. And that it had been in place for a long time. After coming out and stating "this is already the law", and resulting pushback against it, the thing changed by this administration was to allow purely online courses for visa students.

Are you saying that allowing purely online learning for students with visas is a blunder, or am I misinformed about this?

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#187

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

filoleg wrote: post #175
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attendance is tracked at any university with students that receive federal aid... So most of them.

This is so obviously wrong. Source: I went to a public state school less than 10 years ago and I (along with many other students) received federal aid. 90% of the classes I took didn't require attendance, and the ones that did were mostly general studies courses for freshmen (like basic lab sciences or language classes). None of the major-related courses required attendance or had it as a component of the final grade…

You are so obviously wrong. Every single class I took had attendance taken. I went to university a few years ago.

https://www.lssu.edu/financial-aid/retaining-aid-eligibility...

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#188

Post by WalterBright »

throwawaygh wrote: post #182

I'm not relieved. Or, only partially relieved. One of the core arguments was that the Feds can't pull funds for their stated purpose, which was to encourage/force schools to open ("The government has provided no reason for its abrupt and unexplained shift. That is unsurprising, since... its purpose—as expressed by Acting Deputy Secretary of Homeland Security Ken Cuccinelli—is to 'encourage schools to reopen.' In esse…

The federal government did use the threat of withdrawal of highway funds to get all 50 states to lower the speed limit to 55.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#189

Post by WalterBright »

generationP wrote: post #139
ngngngng wrote: post #104

A well known religious University near me just started offering "in person" (wink wink) classes where attendance would not be taken. I was proud to see it.

Actually, most universities don't take attendance. It's a waste of time, it punishes pro-social behavior (there is no good reason for people feeling sick to go to class), and it's infantilizing. "Attendance required" often means "we will notice if you never attend, and then will feel less bad failing you if you don't do your homework either".

When I attended Caltech, it was institute policy that taking attendance was prohibited and attendance was not a requirement for the grade.

But I did discover that skipping class was not an option for me.

I did enjoy, however, being treated like an adult for the first time in my life.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#190

Post by TigeriusKirk »

benrbray wrote: post #140
jimbob45 wrote: post #134

This is genius. If you assume that the Trump Administration did this to show their base that they're serious about deporting foreigners to garner election votes, then you can conclude that they've managed to do that with as much publicity as possible at virtually no cost financially. It's likely they knew this would never go through and didn't want a knockdown drag-out fight in the courts. However, they still capital…

I'm sorry, what? You think it's a good thing for our politicians to waste everyone's time by pushing policies they know will never pass / will be struck down in court, just to win political points? IMO this sort of thing is exactly what's wrong with the political climate right now. This sort of behavior makes it all about "us vs them" and shuts down any sort of nuanced discussion about what's best for the country.

This happens literally all the time, and has for 35+ years I've been following politics
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