U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#161

Post by gwright » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 10:33 PM UTC

gaukes wrote: post #66

tmountain wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Executive branch is overpowered partially because the senate refuses to do its job. The original intent was for the senate to be slower moving and "cool" house legislation leading to slower moving governing structures. Over time, the executive branch was given additional power to "get stuff done", and we find ourselves in the situation we have today.

On the other hand.. the overreach of the executive branch is a response to the political deadlock in the legislative branch. If we end up in a situation where neither branch can respond quickly and effectively, that may be worse than what we have now.

I don't think most of it is "overreach" as more often than not Congress is explicitly ceding authority to the executive branch.

That isn't to say there isn't "overreach".

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#162

Post by willis936 » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 10:33 PM UTC

lefrenchy wrote: post #112

Such an embarrassing blunder, of many blunders, for this administration.

He got his racist dogwhistle in during an election year, made international headlines, and sees no repercussions. How can this be viewed as anything other than a win for Trump?

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#163

Post by netsharc » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 10:35 PM UTC

kabdib wrote: post #108

protastus wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The backup worked this time. This is akin to a safety system taking over and restoring stability, despite a major component failure. From the outside, things "worked" but backups are designed for extraordinary and rare circumstances, not for continuous use.

Or a safety system, like an airbag. Not something you want to be triggering as a matter of course or to be proud of having done so, ever.

Yeah I prefer the airbag analogy.

"Well, the driver was drunk, we couldn't get him to stop despite our attempts, he drove us into a ditch, but the airbags worked!"

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#164

Post by toby » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 10:36 PM UTC

dcow wrote: post #86

nonce42 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The system worked this time. I view the phrase "the system worked" as a red flag indicating that things went wrong in a way they shouldn't, not a positive thing. A successful outcome doesn't necessarily indicate things are fine. A canonical example is the Space Shuttle boosters. The O-rings were supposed to block all the hot gases, but there was some gas leakage and erosion of the O-rings. Nothing bad happened and o…

I think in this case, however, the system also worked as designed . O-rings aren’t designed to erode. The government, on the other hand, has designed power checks to prevent exactly what happened: a well meaning but ultimately idiotic decision from adversely impacting peoples’ lives in ways that weren’t initially accounted for. In no way am I giving credit to anyone here, just pointing out that the analogy doesn't qu…

"well-meaning"? Are we still talking about the international student deportation order?

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#165

Post by aspaceman » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 10:36 PM UTC

wahern wrote: post #153

generationP wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, most universities don't take attendance. It's a waste of time, it punishes pro-social behavior (there is no good reason for people feeling sick to go to class), and it's infantilizing. "Attendance required" often means "we will notice if you never attend, and then will feel less bad failing you if you don't do your homework either".

My law school classes took attendance. Rigorously. Because time management is a critical skill for attorneys, judges don't tolerate any amount of unannounced absenteeism, and missing filing deadlines can be and often is extremely costly, not just for you but for your client. (Also, taking attendance weeds out the liars. The ABA has strict attendance requirements and you're not supposed to get a degree if you miss the…

I think small classes and discussions (like in law school) are a different breed than large lectures. My view has always been that if the class is less than 10 or so students, attendance can be required. The students should be given the ability to email for an absence, no questions asked. In these cases, the success of the class is entirely dependent on students attending. If they don't, the class fails.

Military you're trying to teach a hundred things besides just the material, so I think it's really fitting there.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#166

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 10:38 PM UTC

oh_sigh wrote: post #64

amerine wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why wouldn’t they? Your question doesn’t make sense to me

You can't just sue because you are displeased with something - you need to have suffered, or will suffer direct harm from the thing(this is called locus standi). I'm guessing OP is saying that Harvard/MIT would not be harmed from this, only the students would be harmed(so they would need to be the ones to sue, not the college). It kind of makes sense - if everything is online courses, it doesn't matter to Harvard whe…

[deleted]

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#167

Post by didgeoridoo » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 10:39 PM UTC

quadrifoliate wrote: post #133

LiquidSky wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was election year red meat for Trump's base, which his campaign has explicitly made their sole focus. It lets them tell the true believers that Trump tried to keep the evil foreigners out but the liberal deep state traitors stopped him, that's why they need to keep supporting Trump. That's what's behind all of these absurd attacks on immigrants, queer people, etc that instantly get struck down.

Yeah, in some ways this was the perfect outcome for that kind of posturing. Anecdotally, it seems to me that an actual drop in international student numbers would likely have hurt colleges in Republican-controlled states worse than Democrat-controlled ones. American students armed with student loans would still flock to top universities to make up for the international student shortfall, and I can't think of a top 10…

Harvard and MIT don’t come to mind? (Mass. Gov Charlie Baker is a Republican)

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#168

Post by dmode » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 10:39 PM UTC

balls187 wrote: post #60

maddyboo wrote: post #15

Can someone explain how foreign students taking online classes gives them ‘full rein’ and is a threat to national security? > ICE also contends that a full slate of virtual coursework compromises national security by giving foreign students free rein within the U.S., and says a freeze would undermine “the deference afforded administrative agencies in complex and interrelated fields like immigration enforcement.”

ICE stated they would have "free rein" not "full rein." The argument is essentially that by allowing students to take online classes, they are free to travel anywhere within the united states. With mandatory in person classes, they would be restricted to being near campus. The federal government would have a harder time keeping track of students, as their schools would no longer really have an idea if the students ar…

When I was a student, I did travel throughout the country during breaks, weekends, holidays etc. Didn't realize this was a thread to national security

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#169

Post by vharuck » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 10:40 PM UTC

ben7799 wrote: post #25

This program was a wild success beyond Trump's wildest dreams. No one is talking about Russian Bounties on US troops. Crisis averted. He just keeps on winning!

People keep saying things like this, but is there any proof it works? Sure, the 24 hour news channels will bounce around, but as a vote-winning strategy it's done very poorly. The Republicans lost the House in 2018. Trump's never had to contend for reelection himself, so his "distraction tactics" haven't been proven.

I use quotes because I've stopped believing he has tactics. At most, he does things impulsively, hears how it's spun by lackeys, then adopts their rationalization himself. Maybe he'll keep it in mind the next time he decides something.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#170

Post by gnulinux » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 10:40 PM UTC

gwright wrote: post #155

gnulinux wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Others gave you good answers but also consider this. There are thousands of PhD students who create value for these universities. They not only do research, help research being made, they also teach others. Kicking all these people out of US due to whims of ICE harms universities' financial interest as well. Universities are not making their education remote because they choose to do so. They're doing precisely to pr…

FWIW, it is helpful to understand that this isn't ICE making policy randomly but in fact just enforcing the regulations surrounding student visas. The existing regulations were relaxed in March but the underlying regulatory idea is that you don't need a visa for online education and online education is not sufficient for a visa to be issued. I tend to think that it was premature to rescind the temporary waiving of th…

(AINAL) No I don't think you're correct, which is what I (and others) were trying to explain. Which is also why MIT and Harvard (and many other universities) sued ICE. Here, copy paste from another comment:

> 19. Plaintiffs have standing to bring this case. Defendants’ actions will cause an imminent, concrete, and irreparable risk to Plaintiffs’ ability to achieve their educational missions unless halted by this Court.

> 20.Plaintiffs also have standing to assert claims on behalf of their F-1 visa-holding students, who face the imminent, concrete, and irreparable risk of harm to themselves, their families, their educations, their short-term and long-term health, and their future education and employment prospects if Defendants’ actions are not halted by this Court.

[0]: https://www.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/content/sevp_fil...

What you're missing is universities are making their classes online not because they're offering online education, but because they're forced to do so in order to protect students and faculty (including F1 students) from a pandemic. F1 visa specifically gives students right to protect themselves from such risks.

If universities switched to remote education e.g. to cut cost or to experiment with online education methods, then you'd be right. But the argument here is that universities do this because students and faculty face irreparable damage or death, and therefore there is no basis to deport to F1 students.