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Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

bbc.com

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Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#371

Post by blibble »

_jgdh wrote: post #345
blibble wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's why China can screw over every neighbour, taking what they please. Who's going to stop them? Is Vietnam or Malaysia suddenly going to stand up to China? No, they will merely grumble. ah yes, exactly the same logic that resulted in World War 2

The world is much more inter-connected than it was then. The cost of a war with China is orders of magnitude more than the cost of a war with Germany. In fact, for the first several months of WWII, British and French citizens barely noticed the war. War with China would be extremely painful, every single item that modern life depends upon apart from food will suddenly become scarce. That acts as a powerful deterrent.

> The world is much more inter-connected than it was then. The cost of a war with China is orders of magnitude more than the cost of a war with Germany.

"economic interdependence prevents wars" was commonly accepted to be true in the 1910s, right up until the outbreak of World War I

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#372

Post by electronWizard »

CodesInChaos wrote: post #322

If the protocols used for mobile networks were designed to be secure, most of the infrastructure couldn't do anything worse than a DoS attack. It'd still need some trusted servers for key management, but those could be standard hardware with relatively simple software.

If China can cause a denial of service attack on a country by remotely bricking all the network infrastructure or even slowing it down to a degree, this would still be economically devastating at the least.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#373

Post by yorwba »

baybal2 wrote: post #96
room271 wrote: post #9

This kind of thing is going to play out a lot over the next few years. It's a tough question: how to marry globalisation with the political realities. When China was very poor, it didn't really matter, or perhaps the assumption was that China would liberalise more quickly than it has. But China, while increasingly mature economically, has not developed proper civil society, human rights, freedom of expression, democr…

> It's a tough question: how to marry globalisation with the political realities. Very simple explanation: it's impossible, unless the West can mow the rogue regimes left, and right, and is ready for a war with a nuclear power to do that. > When China was very poor, it didn't really matter, or perhaps the assumption was that China would liberalise more quickly than it has. Expecting a communist party to "liberalise"…

They might be able to take some inspiration from the KMT slowly giving up power in the ROC without being eaten alive by their enemies afterwards.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#374

Post by wyuenho »

benlumen wrote: post #368

Something I don't see many people talking about is how Openreach, the UK's main physical layer broadband provider, uses Huawei kit in the majority of its street cabinets and has done since FTTC VDSL was rolled out a decade ago. 5G is the tip of the iceberg with respect to the UK's communications infrastructure involvement with Huawei.

Worse, Hyperoptic gives everyone a terrible ZTE router lol

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#375

Post by HideousKojima »

free_rms wrote: post #362
HideousKojima wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the numbers I can find from a cursory search, the upper estimates for deaths caused by the White Terror is ~32,000 (28k from the massacre that kicked it off plus 4,000 executed in camps). That's about .35% of Taiwan's then population of ~9 million. By contrast, the Great Leap Forward alone killed 16 million, and that's at the lower end of estimates. The population of China at the end of this was ~665 million, me…

But you hadn't even heard of that. Or the gwangju massacre in korea. Right? Why is that? How come some things are marketed extensively to the American public but others are never mentioned? (Also, if the goal is to criticize maoist China, I'd go with the cultural revolution instead of the great leap forward)

I had, in fact, heard of the White Terror, and the suppression of the island's indiginous people. I had not heard of the Gwangju Massacre.

There are two reasons why they aren't mentioned as much as Mao's atrocities. One is that those countries are our allies, and as a result we are more willing to overlook their faults. And I don't think that's necessarily right, but it's part of human nature to overlook the faults and flaws of friends and allies. But the second reason is that, even ignoring those effects, Mao killed far more of his citizens (and far more per capita), making it a much more interesting and disturbing event in history. The atrocities of Taiwan and South Korea come across as "run of the mill authoritarian leaders violently cracking down on dissent" while the atrocities of Mao's China are on a whole different level.

FWIW, as far as dictators and genociders go I think Pol Pot gets the least attention relative to the scale of his atrocities since he wiped out 25% of the population, and in extremely brutal and arbitrary ways.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#376

Post by mhandley »

benlumen wrote: post #368

Something I don't see many people talking about is how Openreach, the UK's main physical layer broadband provider, uses Huawei kit in the majority of its street cabinets and has done since FTTC VDSL was rolled out a decade ago. 5G is the tip of the iceberg with respect to the UK's communications infrastructure involvement with Huawei.

The article does touch on this:

"New restrictions will also apply to use of the company's broadband kit.

Operators are being told they should "transition away" from purchasing new Huawei equipment for use in full-fibre networks, ideally within the next two years."

Not clear if this is just FTTP or whether it includes FTTC, but I doubt there's a lot of new investment in FTTC going forward.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#377

Post by mattmanser »

opless wrote: post #358
totalZero wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing one of the largest risk vectors in the whole 5G game. 5G operates on higher frequency and requires a larger density of base stations. If you can identify individual devices -- even without cracking the encryption they use -- then you can track them them geographically, and also conduct traffic analysis. 5G presents a potential security risk because it allows far greater granularity of device localizati…

> 5G operates on higher frequency and requires a larger density of base stations No that’s not required, 5G uses the same old frequencies as 2/3/4G for the bulk of the traffic, it only uses the >1Ghz frequencies for microcells in malls and other dense areas where appropriate.

I assume in order to be able to decide to serve those 1Ghz frequencies, all the phones are going to ping the local towers regardless, so it doesn't matter.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#378

Post by Traster »

electronWizard wrote: post #372
CodesInChaos wrote: post #322

If the protocols used for mobile networks were designed to be secure, most of the infrastructure couldn't do anything worse than a DoS attack. It'd still need some trusted servers for key management, but those could be standard hardware with relatively simple software.

If China can cause a denial of service attack on a country by remotely bricking all the network infrastructure or even slowing it down to a degree, this would still be economically devastating at the least.

I think there's a difference worth noting between subtle monitoring & coersion vs. a full out act of war. By the time China is trying to denial of service the UK's 5G infrastructure we've got other things to worry about.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#379

Post by euix »

Here is a meta comment: having read this entire thread, it's pretty obvious that if even reasonably educated and intelligent people on a technical forum like this descend into complete disagreement then one can think what happens among the society and people at large on both sides of the Pacific and how easily it is to descend into a conflict.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#380

Post by dastx »

wyuenho wrote: post #374
benlumen wrote: post #368

Something I don't see many people talking about is how Openreach, the UK's main physical layer broadband provider, uses Huawei kit in the majority of its street cabinets and has done since FTTC VDSL was rolled out a decade ago. 5G is the tip of the iceberg with respect to the UK's communications infrastructure involvement with Huawei.

Worse, Hyperoptic gives everyone a terrible ZTE router lol

Not sure about Hyperoptic, but CommunityFibre (gigabit FTTP) also uses Huawei routers (and presuming kit in the rest of their infra). I can hands down say, as much as it was a shit router, it still was better than the routers I've been given with any other provider.
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