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German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

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Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#391

Post by ogre_codes »

catalogia wrote: post #363
ogre_codes wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In contrast, Telsa "autopilot" requires constant vigilance since you might have to take over without any warning. Neither version eliminates the need for the pilot/ driver to cease situational control. Pilots have absolutely flown into the side of mountains while on autopilot. (Ironically called "Controlled flight into terrain"). The big difference between the two is in an aircraft there is less to collide with whe…

With a typical aircraft autopilot, the pilot is allowed to take their hands off the controls. Tesla's manual quite clearly forbids that.

You are splitting hairs. The problem isn't whether someone has their hands on the controls or not, it's the fact that the operator isn't paying attention to what's going on outside the vehicle.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#392

Post by andrepd »

dkonofalski wrote: post #3

I agree with this wholeheartedly, even as a Tesla owner. Tesla goofed from the beginning by calling tech like "Autosteer" and "Traffic Assisted Cruise Control" under the moniker "Autopilot" while shifting everything above that to "Full Self-Driving". They should have called it "CoPilot" since that infers that you're still the driver in charge of controlling the vehicle and it would have had exactly the same reception…

I didn't even realise that was all that the touted "Tesla Autopilot" did, so much was the hype around the internet. My 20k car does the same then (lane keeping + auto emergency braking).

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#393

Post by benjohnson1707 »

hef19898 wrote: post #269
Robotbeat wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to address this because in spite of Elon (whether punching down with Twitter or COVIDiocy, etc) burning up a lot of the goodwill he had accumulated in the past, these things remain: The reason people think Elon may do level 5 autonomy is because his companies have accomplished several things that industry experts said were either infeasible or impossible. Fast charging, large-battery electric cars that are fas…

What exactly did his companies deliver, that experts said was impossible, in the technological sense I mean? Reusable rockets, deemed possible but not economic due to the low number of launches. SpaceX delivered amazing stuff, so, but nothing impossible. EVs were a thing already 100 years ago, so technically totally feasible, as is mass production. And the battery tech is to large part Panasonic. Still impressive wha…

100 $ / kWh battery packs. Or the range of the Semi, deemed 'physically impossible' by a Daimler exec. Let's see how that goes.

Musk's whole point is this: much more things are technologically feasible, but most people / companies limit themselves within apparent constraints.

As mentioned: he's a physicist. From a physics standpoint, only a small amount of things are actually impossible. Only the deepest fundamentals give rise to constraints, and only those are the constraints he accepts. Everything else is debatable. At least. Sure, money so that he can throw army of talented engineers at problems helps. But it's his whole point! If it's your goal and it's possible in principle, reach for it.

Be it batteries, reusable rockets, autopilot.

That's why he says that it's possible in principle to achieve level 5 autonomy without lidar (having worked with lidar as chief engineer at SpaceX) and that it's possible in principle to do brain-machine-brain communication of language or complex ideas within a decade.

It might not work eventually. If so, it might be very well delayed for years.

But there is a reason that ppl like Thiel or Palihapitiya say: never bet against Elon.

Imagine Tesla actually rolling out level 5 autonomy within a year or two...

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#394

Post by bumby »

bdamm wrote: post #327
bluGill wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost everything unsafe about gas cars applies regardless of the power train. The only exception is leaving it running in a closed room (and even there it isn't nearly as bad for a modern car) Every car I've ever owned had no problem reaching freeway speeds. Even my geo metro which is rightly considered underpowered at best (and mine had a misfire problem). I'm not going to a track so I don't need more speed than is…

EVs are much safer than gasoline cars because of how the mass in the car is distributed. Gasoline cars have a giant brick in the front (engine and transmission) which moves back into the passenger compartment in a frontal collision. Automotive engineers have to work all kinds of magic to stop the engine from smashing passengers. In an EV, the big sled of batteries in the bottom causes the car to rotate away from the…

I couldn’t find any after a quick search, but are you aware of any studies that compare EV to ICE safety normalized for model year? It would be an interesting comparison given the assumption that there are a lot more older (and this less safe) ICE vehicles on the road

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#395

Post by lazyjones »

ojnabieoot wrote: post #310
lazyjones wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is true that highly knowledgeable people know that Musk is an idiot conman The same "highly knowledgable people" who have been shorting TSLA and parroting that the company is going broke any moment now, surely. I'm actually surprised people aren't ashamed to write such utter nonsense in a place like HN.

Look I really don't have a dog in the $TSLA or Tesla fight - I have no investments in the stock market and due to a disability I cannot drive a car. My grievance is with celebrity CEO worship, and in giving CEO credit for labor's accomplishments (which is particularly egregious in the case of SpaceX). Being an idiot conman and being a technical genius are not mutually exclusive. And clearly being an idiot conman and…

> I know I am being mean to Elon by calling him an idiot [...] But facts are facts.

You are not being mean, just silly. Elon clearly isn't an "idiot" however you stretch the meaning of the word, he's a highly capable and successful man and has demonstrated repeatedly his skill, both in engineering and entrepreneurship. And your opinion isn't a fact.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#396

Post by detaro »

ogre_codes wrote: post #391
catalogia wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With a typical aircraft autopilot, the pilot is allowed to take their hands off the controls. Tesla's manual quite clearly forbids that.

You are splitting hairs. The problem isn't whether someone has their hands on the controls or not, it's the fact that the operator isn't paying attention to what's going on outside the vehicle.

It's not splitting hairs if the expected reaction time and circumstances are so different. That being very unattentive can kill you in both doesn't make the differences irrelevant.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#397

Post by lazyjones »

foepys wrote: post #298
lazyjones wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Besides the Model 3's crazy acceleration, and automatic lane changing, I think the Accord matches or exceeds a Model 3 in every single way Except noise, pollution, complexity/maintenance cost, OTA updates, large touchscreen navigation that gets updated continuously, having to visit gas stations etc. etc. ICE is just obsolete technology. Half the performance at 10 times the noise and infinitely more pollution.

Noise actually isn't a factor. After about 20mph tire noise drowns out engine noise. Excluding cars that are purposely build/modified to be annoyingly loud.

> After about 20mph tire noise drowns out engine noise.

This has been claimed over and over and is possibly true in some test scenarios but not in any real situation. Noise is additive, the engine noise may not be clearly audible, but tire+engine noise is always louder than just tire noise. And any time an ICE actually revs up, it's clearly audible at any high speed.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#398

Post by justapassenger »

bdamm wrote: post #299
Aunche wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you driven a modern ICE? I rented a new Honda Accord this weekend. Besides the Model 3's crazy acceleration, and automatic lane changing, I think the Accord matches or exceeds a Model 3 in every single way, and it's roughly half the price. This isn't to say Teslas aren't impressive, but I do think they're overhyped.

Have you driven a Model 3? It's like night and day. Everything that burns gasoline feels like a dinosaur to me now after driving a Model 3. I can't stand renting cars, they are all complete junk compared to my Model 3 at home. I said this to a Hertz in Denver, they gave me their best Jaguar. It stinks, it is slow, it is pathetic. It's basically game over for ICE, and they know it. They have 10-15 years maybe but at t…

> I can't stand renting cars, they are all complete junk compared to my Model 3 at home. I said this to a Hertz in Denver, they gave me their best Jaguar.

I can't stand meat. I've asked McDonalds to give me their best BigMac and it was horrible.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#399

Post by cma »

croes wrote: post #58
gardaani wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only five days ago Elon Musk claimed that "we will have the basic functionality for level five autonomy complete this year." (yeah..!) https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53349313

Didn't he claim the same last year and the year before?

Don't forget the LA to New York drive by 2017 with no interventions, on completely different less powerful hardware.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#400

Post by ogre_codes »

detaro wrote: post #396
ogre_codes wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are splitting hairs. The problem isn't whether someone has their hands on the controls or not, it's the fact that the operator isn't paying attention to what's going on outside the vehicle.

It's not splitting hairs if the expected reaction time and circumstances are so different. That being very unattentive can kill you in both doesn't make the differences irrelevant.

> It's not splitting hairs if the expected reaction time and circumstances are so different.

No, the likelihood of incident is vastly lower in the air, but the required reaction time is not necessarily different and could easily be a lot lower, particularly if you are flying IFR. That's the whole point, much like in a car, a pilot must have eyes outside the cockpit.

Again, I'm not arguing that Tesla is right here about advertising, just that the two technologies are very similar in nature. The other big difference is the fact that pilots have to go through training and are tested on their understanding of the specific technology they control. Drivers, never have to be certified or trained on any specific vehicle.

If a pilot treats autopilot in a plane the way some people treat it in a Tesla, there would be a lot more fatalities in air travel, particularly in smaller aircraft with older technology.

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