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German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

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Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#371

Post by perl4ever »

frenchy wrote: post #202
smnrchrds wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple, HP, etc should take note and sell their laptops as "have the hardware needed for full AGI capability." Chemistry kits with a sample of every element in the periodic table should advertise them as "have all the materials needed for COVID-19 vaccine."

> Chemistry kits with a sample of every element in the periodic table should advertise them as "have all the materials needed for COVID-19 vaccine. Not that this invalidates your point at all, but doing that literally would actually be extremely expensive and difficult for some of the elements.

Surely the extremely expensive and difficult to obtain elements aren't going to be in any vaccine.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#372

Post by Silhouette »

ummonk wrote: post #341
Silhouette wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it won't come close to Theranos. Tesla makes real products that are class-leading. Class-leading in what sense(s)? Even if Tesla can't reach level 5, it will be damn close But that's the problem with self-driving cars. Damn close isn't good enough. A miss is as good as a mile. The problem with the self-driving/automation scale is that anything around levels 2-4 probably shouldn't be allowed on public roads, at le…

Level 5 isn't the only safe level. Level 4 is safe too - e.g. a car that is fully capable of driving itself without human monitoring in slow stop and go traffic on a highway. Levels 2 and 3 are the danger zone (and it worries me that car systems have gone ahead from level 1 to level 2, as having the human steer ensures driver attentiveness which is harder to maintain when the car does lane centering for you).

Level 5 isn't the only safe level. Level 4 is safe too

I agree that, by definition, this is necessarily true.

The catch I see is that the same definition is predicated on the vehicle being able to safely end the journey before entering any unsupported situation, without requiring any driver interaction. I'm not aware that we have any known strategy for solving that problem in the general case that would not achieve level 5 anyway.

I acknowledge that in specific situations like geofencing, where a vehicle does effectively operate at level 5 but only under predetermined conditions, that would be level 4 according to the scale. However, it's the ability to operate fully autonomously, albeit within those boundaries, that makes the vehicle safe in this scenario.

So, what happens if external conditions (for example, directions by a police officer, or some sort of road accident or severe weather) mean that the vehicle cannot safely remain within the area where it can operate autonomously? Unlike a vehicle with a human driver, it cannot adapt and safely leave that area either.

In short, unless perhaps we're also going to have a new set of rules and possibly some separated infrastructure for use with level 4 vehicles, I'm not sure they can ever fully match the safety of a human driver without necessarily reaching level 5.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#373

Post by dlp211 »

uniqueid wrote: post #91
HumblyTossed wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you use the wayback machine and look at their AutoPilot page, the very first thing you see is ... well, here: https://web.archive.org/web/20170201120106/https://www.tesla... They wanted people to believe that this had more capabilities than it really does.

> All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver. My my, that is brazen!

This is rich. I was watching a K8S/Puppet video from 2016 on YouTube today. In that video, the presenter pulls up HackerNews and the 6th item on HackerNews at that time was exactly this:

All Tesla vehicles now have all the hardware needed for full self-driving capability

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#374

Post by perl4ever »

Silhouette wrote: post #230
gibolt wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it gets there, regulatory approval will absolutely be a bottleneck to deployment. They don't say it is a current blocker. And it won't come close to Theranos. Tesla makes real products that are class-leading. Even if Tesla can't reach level 5, it will be damn close and make driving 10-100x safer than just a human.

And it won't come close to Theranos. Tesla makes real products that are class-leading. Class-leading in what sense(s)? Even if Tesla can't reach level 5, it will be damn close But that's the problem with self-driving cars. Damn close isn't good enough. A miss is as good as a mile. The problem with the self-driving/automation scale is that anything around levels 2-4 probably shouldn't be allowed on public roads, at le…

>But that's the problem with self-driving cars. Damn close isn't good enough. A miss is as good as a mile

Maybe close is good enough. The problem as I see it that people usually don't seem to be focused on is that it's impossible for humans to monitor the situation while doing other stuff. You can only do that when you're far away from other things like in a plane or on a boat.

How can we simultaneously believe it's possible to instantly engage with driving and that people can't be trusted to text or make phone calls while driving?

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#375

Post by dlp211 »

jdminhbg wrote: post #182
bra-ket wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the "right software" is nowhere to be found though

They don’t claim to have it. I’m just pointing out that the claim as written is true.

It's may or may not be, and most likely not. Humans are more than just software, they are also hardware. And no, the consumer grade cameras included in Tesla vehicles are not replicas for eyeballs.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#376

Post by detaro »

maxharris wrote: post #345

If you actually believe that Tesla will fail to deliver full self-driving in the coming years, I have two questions. 1. have you watched this entire technical presentation made by Andrej Karpathy, Senior Director of AI at Tesla? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx7BXih7zx8 2. if you understand what you've seen in that video, why do you think Tesla will fail?

What's "the coming years"? 5 years after they first made the claim? 5 years from now? 5 years from 5 years from now?

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#377

Post by thecupisblue »

jacquesm wrote: post #221
brabel wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's an idiot in the sense that Trump is an idiot. Made billions (sure, not started from scratch, but they still made billions more than you and me), says stupid things all the time but they still can get away with it and win (the presidency, the most valued car company in the word, whatever it is they want).

Trump started out with 100's of millions. Musk started off significantly lower on the ladder.

Musk's father owns a ruby mine in Africa.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#378

Post by dlp211 »

modeless wrote: post #231
elandrum wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sure does get them a lot of attention though! My Jeep Cherokee has lane assist, adaptive cruise control, auto-parking, and crash detection (emergency braking) but they don’t get all this press about it.

But it doesn't automatically change lanes to follow routes or pass slow traffic. It doesn't take exits or navigate interchanges. It doesn't stop for stoplights. You can't drive it around a parking lot from your phone with nobody in the driver's seat. What Autopilot offers is not "Full Self Driving", but don't pretend like the features on your Jeep are equivalent.

Because the execs at Jeep know the limitations of their platform, Tesla on the other hand just loves to roll the dice.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#379

Post by mtgp1000 »

u10 wrote: post #71
Vysero wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? You're guna bet against Elon Musk? You really think that's wise? XD

Betting against Elon is a fools errand not because he's right, but because he's built a personality cult around himself.

Counterpoint: Elon Musk is the only (publicly visible) CEO who is seriously talking about going to Mars and direct interfacing between machines and humans and making tangible steps toward these futuristic goals.

His rockets are [mostly] not exploding, his cars are selling to [mostly] good reviews, and neuralink seems to be doing something too.

Perhaps his cult of personality is deserved because although he (along with basically the entire industry) overpromised on self driving timelines, nonetheless he does seem to be one of the few people with the practical vision to take us into a techno future.

Consider that this guy went from a payment processing app to a bonafide private rocket company and is democratizing space flight (and satellite internet!) in what, about a decade?

People love to hate the guy, I believe because he has brash and harbors some unpopular (callous but rational) opinions. Regardless, the respect that he gets from his fanboys is arguably in deserved, if you're the type to find inspiration in great people.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#380

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

Robotbeat wrote: post #220
nemothekid wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. I'm saying Tesla is successful because of Elon's hype. They are not "forgiving" his misgivings, they fully believe Elon will solve world hunger and invent FTL space travel. If you ask anyone who's bought into Tesla, they will tell you the "Auto Pilot on airplanes" lie, but they also believe Elon will deliver on Level 5 Autonomous driving. No cares about electric cars, they care about the guy's company who is usin…

I want to address this because in spite of Elon (whether punching down with Twitter or COVIDiocy, etc) burning up a lot of the goodwill he had accumulated in the past, these things remain: The reason people think Elon may do level 5 autonomy is because his companies have accomplished several things that industry experts said were either infeasible or impossible. Fast charging, large-battery electric cars that are fas…

> hen when they proposed propulsive landing, some NASA experts in the field thought it’d fail. I know one NASA GNC guy who said drone ship landing is impossible.

Propulsive landing was not a spacex innovation. They simply picked back up the research agenda of Delta Clipper.

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