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U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

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Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Lobbying” as the reflexive reason for all political ills is tiresome, especially considering aggressive lobbying by universities is likely what caused this reversal.

I'm pretty sure the lawsuits had more to do with it than anything else.

Lawsuits are one facet of lobbying.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#113
post #86
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The system worked this time. I view the phrase "the system worked" as a red flag indicating that things went wrong in a way they shouldn't, not a positive thing. A successful outcome doesn't necessarily indicate things are fine. A canonical example is the Space Shuttle boosters. The O-rings were supposed to block all the hot gases, but there was some gas leakage and erosion of the O-rings. Nothing bad happened and o…

I think in this case, however, the system also worked as designed . O-rings aren’t designed to erode. The government, on the other hand, has designed power checks to prevent exactly what happened: a well meaning but ultimately idiotic decision from adversely impacting peoples’ lives in ways that weren’t initially accounted for. In no way am I giving credit to anyone here, just pointing out that the analogy doesn't qu…

If I remember correctly, the problem was that O-rings were designed to not erode at particular humidities and temperatures, which were subtly but critically different from the launch conditions.

This was actually observed by engineers at the time, who tried (unsuccessfully) to raise the observation to their superiors. The launch went on anyway, and the rest is history.

This has more details, along with my cousin comment: https://people.rit.edu/wlrgsh/FINRobison.pdf

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#114
post #6

Excellent. The system worked this time. People challenged executive branch action through the judicial system and the executive branch backed down. But this should never have been an issue to begin with, think of all the unnecessary stress and anxiety this has caused for the hundreds of thousands of international students impacted by this.

I guess. But we've ramped up uncertainty, people are afraid, and people who have been considering coming to the US will now go elsewhere.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#115
post #92

Yeah this isn't a viable way to formulate public policy. It isn't new either, happened with the travel ban early on. Soft power, and even the viability of a country, depends on certain long-term guarantees, guarantees that the current administration has blown away completely. I'm pessimistic that even if a change in administration occurs early next year (and that is a major if), there would be anything any administra…

Us dearh rate is pretty low and excess deaths are almost back to zero. The problematic outlier is just NYC, where the problem was arguably exacerbated by Democratic mayor encouraging NewYorkers to party in Chinatown end of January. Overall Trump’s response was decent. Edit: Looks like this triggered a few people. Low mortality rate: https://91-divoc.com/pages/covid-visualization/?chart=countr... Excess deaths almost…

Death rate has been falling steadily for several weeks and then this past week increased significantly. New cases and hospitalizations are continuing to rise in several states now, along with deaths there. The epidemic is certainly not over yet.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#116
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until the next judge -appointed by the President —gets to decide and rubber stamps his decision. Depending on judges with lifetime appointments isn’t a good system. Why could this decision be made in the first place by non elected officials? Why didn’t such a drastic decision have to be passed via the legislative process?

> Why didn’t such a drastic decision have to be passed via the legislative process? The legislature can stop pretty much any form of bad executive overreach, by passing a bill. The problem is that (enough of) the legislature did not want to stop this.

That isn’t very reassuring. He shouldn’t have had the power to unilaterally make this decision in the first place. While the legislature might have not passed a law that overrode his decision. I doubt they would have passed a law saying it was permissible.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#117
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2 is the answer. They probably hardly cared whether the rule was successfully implemented. They succeeded in spreading FUD and in the future, prospective international students will think twice before deciding to study in the US. The damage is done.

Lots of top tier universities are already opening foreign campuses. Future students will just end up there. This move accelerated the rise of foreign top tier mind work at the expense of that work in the USA. Couple this with the antagonistic stance by the administration to foreign highly capable workers and you have a recipe for a tech softening in the USA. This is good for the world. Part of me sees this as a cynic…

Those foreign campuses are also known to be a joke and cash grabs. Foreign governments pay universities basically to use their brand, they pay some professors to visit for a month and put that campus's affiliation on a few papers, and claim that they are publishing state-of-the-art research and training their own students. Meanwhile, none of those students are prepared, and the campus doesn't attract any students besides local students, so it's just a local institution with a foreign brand.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#119

A well known religious University near me just started offering "in person" (wink wink) classes where attendance would not be taken. I was proud to see it.

I figured some universities would start doing things like this. You can even make the class special in that it's pass/fail, doesn't affect your GPA, doesn't appear in your transcript, it's a special class that is free and doesn't increase your tuition, etc. Glad to know it's no longer going to be required to pull moves like this.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#120

Can someone explain how foreign students taking online classes gives them ‘full rein’ and is a threat to national security? > ICE also contends that a full slate of virtual coursework compromises national security by giving foreign students free rein within the U.S., and says a freeze would undermine “the deference afforded administrative agencies in complex and interrelated fields like immigration enforcement.”

ICE stated they would have "free rein" not "full rein." The argument is essentially that by allowing students to take online classes, they are free to travel anywhere within the united states. With mandatory in person classes, they would be restricted to being near campus. The federal government would have a harder time keeping track of students, as their schools would no longer really have an idea if the students ar…

Thanks for correcting – free rein, I mixed up the two adjectives in the quote.
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