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German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

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Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#351

Post by Piskvorrr »

gibolt wrote: post #160
thrwyoilarticle wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then a Covid vaccine is also blocked by regulatory approval. I look forward to teaching my project manager this new definition.

Yes, exactly. Quite a few possibilities are being tested, as in they exist (maybe). It is quite literally being blocked by regulatory approval, with the testing for validity and safety being the approval process.

Nope. They're being tested for validity, meaning that their existence _as a treatment_ is under test. If it turns out they don't have an effect, will you say "we did have a cure for a moment: leeches; but it was rejected by the regulatory process, therefore bad bureaucrats for showing that it didn't work"?

Of course not, that doesn't make sense...if your goal is a cure. (If you're peddling hope, or just looking to make money off quack medicine, OTOH...)

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#352

Post by Dahoon »

lazyjones wrote: post #197
nemothekid wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla is one part car company, one part battery company, and 5 parts marketing hype. The only reason people are seriously contemplating buying full electric cars today instead of the bullshit BMW produced is because Iron Man convinced enough people that electric cars will simultaneously fly to mars and cure world hunger. The stock reflects this. In other words, there is no Tesla without Elon's meme machine. The grave…

> The only reason people are seriously contemplating buying full electric cars today instead of the bullshit BMW produced is because Iron Man convinced enough people that electric cars will simultaneously fly to mars and cure world hunger. Is this supposed to be ironic or do you actually believe this drivel? Drive a modern EV and try again. Most Tesla owners will never go back to a noisy, smelly, crappy, slow ICE.

No one can take you serious when you write drivel like this. I have driven many cars more silent than a Tesla. Even my own Alfa Romeo makes as little noise and way less for people outside. Hell even my neighbor's Ford Mondeo is harder for me to hear than a Tesla driving by on the 50km/t limited street outside my garden. It is so so easy to find the Tesla and Musk fans in threads like these. Owning both types (ice + ev) makes it even easier.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#353

Post by tcoff91 »

Animats wrote: post #238
FartyMcFarter wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main Autopilot marketing page shows a video of a Tesla driving itself, says the Driver is there for legal purposes only This alone feels like lawsuit-bait. I'm surprised it took this long for the courts to get involved.

Tesla’s Chief Executive Elon Musk said this month the electric car manufacturer was close to making its cars capable of automated driving without any need for driver input, so-called Level 5 autonomy. Yeah, right. Tesla has only Level 2 self-driving. They've never demonstrated Level 3 outside a video of a demo in Palo Alto. They wouldn't even let the press take a ride. Google/Waymo has hundreds of self-driving vehicl…

wait... you can seriously get a fully autonomous taxi in Phoenix right now with no safety driver? That is wild! has anyone documented this on video?

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#354

Post by ogre_codes »

billfor wrote: post #95

I wonder how many people complaining about Tesla's marketing actually have a Tesla. The car clearly makes you acknowledge that the driver is responsible before using any Autopilot/FSD capability, and if you bought the car with the expectation that it didn't , you have a return period to get your money back in full. It doesn't matter if they said it would take you to the moon and back. If you test drive or buy it and…

I get your point, and to a small degree agree with you. The Tesla owners I know understand the limits of the technology and drive reasonably. I'm considering buying a Tesla, knowing the limits of the technology myself. However there are two big ugly facts which bug the hell out of me...

- Their advertising is misleading to most consumers. Whether informed people or existing owners know what the product is capable of doesn't matter, they are advertising in a misleading way.

> no harm done.

It is clear that a subset of Tesla drivers puts too much faith in the effectiveness of Tesla's autopilot. Even though these drivers acknowledged and accepted the risks, it's clear they believe they can trust their Tesla to keep them safe even while they are not watching the road. Tesla's marketing clearly exacerbates this. The fact that Tesla's do the right thing 99% of the time reinforces that marketing message... up until that 0.01% situation occurs, then lots of harm done

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#355

Post by ryan93 »

maxharris wrote: post #345

If you actually believe that Tesla will fail to deliver full self-driving in the coming years, I have two questions. 1. have you watched this entire technical presentation made by Andrej Karpathy, Senior Director of AI at Tesla? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx7BXih7zx8 2. if you understand what you've seen in that video, why do you think Tesla will fail?

Google has a much larger and better funded team that still doesnt seem close. Karpathy is no doubt smart but google has like 10 karpathys for every one TESLA has.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#356

Post by atonalfreerider »

ummonk wrote: post #319
atonalfreerider wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have never heard of pilots having their hand and feet on the stick and paddles in case the airplane make an incorrect maneuver. From the FAA guidlines on Autopilot: > Be ready to fly the aircraft manually to ensure proper course/clearance tracking in case of autopilot failure or misprogramming [0] [0] https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/a...

Being ready to fly doesn't require keeping your hand and feet on the stick and paddles.

The FAA guideline is "ready to fly manually" -> key word "manual" from the Latin manus meaning "hand". Tesla is going a step further by requiring hands-on contact at all times, which makes this system a MORE restrictive autopilot.

Contrary to what has been posted in other comments, pilots don't just get up and start walking around the aircraft. There must be one pilot always ready to take IMMEDIATE control of the aircraft.

I hate when arguments devolve into semantics, which is the premise of this whole thread. But for the sake of discussing semantics, the use of the word "autopilot" is technically accurate. Its vernacular understanding is not. But this was also the case with cruise control. See this case where a driver set a cruise control on her RV and got up to make a cup of tea:

https://www.suffolkgazette.com/news/motorhome-crash/

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#357

Post by thekyle »

lazyjones wrote: post #243
Aunche wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you driven a modern ICE? I rented a new Honda Accord this weekend. Besides the Model 3's crazy acceleration, and automatic lane changing, I think the Accord matches or exceeds a Model 3 in every single way, and it's roughly half the price. This isn't to say Teslas aren't impressive, but I do think they're overhyped.

> Besides the Model 3's crazy acceleration, and automatic lane changing, I think the Accord matches or exceeds a Model 3 in every single way Except noise, pollution, complexity/maintenance cost, OTA updates, large touchscreen navigation that gets updated continuously, having to visit gas stations etc. etc. ICE is just obsolete technology. Half the performance at 10 times the noise and infinitely more pollution.

I like EVs but the biggest thing that prevents me from buying one is range anxiety. I say this because I think it's funny that you consider having to visit gas stations a weakness of ICE, when I consider it the only reason to still own an ICE.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#358

Post by bflesch »

ryan93 wrote: post #355
maxharris wrote: post #345

If you actually believe that Tesla will fail to deliver full self-driving in the coming years, I have two questions. 1. have you watched this entire technical presentation made by Andrej Karpathy, Senior Director of AI at Tesla? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx7BXih7zx8 2. if you understand what you've seen in that video, why do you think Tesla will fail?

Google has a much larger and better funded team that still doesnt seem close. Karpathy is no doubt smart but google has like 10 karpathys for every one TESLA has.

The problem is these 10 karpathys have no vision, otherwise they would've joined Tesla.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#359

Post by mindfulplay »

mleland wrote: post #346
mindfulplay wrote: post #339

Great. I hope they bring charges against Tesla for causing deaths that were completely avoidable. In fact we keep talking about AI ethics and so on. But we seem to have missed this very basic key ethical point: when Silicon Valley VC funded madness via AI/ML crap is pushed at breakneck speeds via these metal torpedoes, who is taking accountability? It's really amazing that Elon is worried about AI overlords when a 's…

Out of curiosity, what part of the driving AI of tesla would you say is currently not lining up with ethical standards?

The fact that they cannot disambiguate between a white truck and the sky color that killed an innocent driver is a starting point.

I realize the drivers probably should be paying attention etc: but when Tesla falsely advertises (or worse by the toddler antics of Elon, portrays the optics of L5 automation); and drivers believe such advertisements then of course they wouldn't know that the car is much worse than promised.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#360

Post by maxharris »

ryan93 wrote: post #355
maxharris wrote: post #345

If you actually believe that Tesla will fail to deliver full self-driving in the coming years, I have two questions. 1. have you watched this entire technical presentation made by Andrej Karpathy, Senior Director of AI at Tesla? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx7BXih7zx8 2. if you understand what you've seen in that video, why do you think Tesla will fail?

Google has a much larger and better funded team that still doesnt seem close. Karpathy is no doubt smart but google has like 10 karpathys for every one TESLA has.

Did you watch the video? Waymo is stuck using lidar, and the video explains why that's a dead-end.

(Want to keep in touch about this bet? I'm maxharris9 on twitter.)

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