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German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

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Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#321

Post by cheerlessbog »

bdamm wrote: post #299
Aunche wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you driven a modern ICE? I rented a new Honda Accord this weekend. Besides the Model 3's crazy acceleration, and automatic lane changing, I think the Accord matches or exceeds a Model 3 in every single way, and it's roughly half the price. This isn't to say Teslas aren't impressive, but I do think they're overhyped.

Have you driven a Model 3? It's like night and day. Everything that burns gasoline feels like a dinosaur to me now after driving a Model 3. I can't stand renting cars, they are all complete junk compared to my Model 3 at home. I said this to a Hertz in Denver, they gave me their best Jaguar. It stinks, it is slow, it is pathetic. It's basically game over for ICE, and they know it. They have 10-15 years maybe but at t…

I took my BMW i3 in for service recently and got a high end 2019 BMW SUV loaner..worth 50% more. I was expecting to be impressed. Instead I was amazed how much I disliked it - clumsy tech, loud, needs fill ups...it seems ICE tech is at a dead end. I truly wouldn't want that vehicle if it was free.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#322

Post by ojnabieoot »

bredren wrote: post #278
ojnabieoot wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tesla goofed from the beginning by calling tech like "Autosteer" and "Traffic Assisted Cruise Control" under the moniker "Autopilot" I am not accusing you specifically of using weak language, but let's call a spade a spade: it's not a "goof," it's a dangerous and deceptive business practice. It's one that Elon Musk is directly responsible for and directly encouraged with misleading statements where he deliberately…

Some of your points are valid though saying he is an idiot and a conman undercuts your statement. The man is no idiot, and while some of the things he has said have not come true, or not been true to begin with, i do not think it is not reasonable to describe him as a “conman.”

See above about being an idiot and being a genius not being mutually exclusive. I am not denying that he is talented and he probably has a > 105 IQ.

The Autopilot controversy is just a straight con job, and a very stupid one. The BS about the $420 stock price was a horrendously stupid con job. His disinformation mongering about coronavirus - when he is smart enough to know the truth - is also a con job, both for his fans and his workers. Deliberately under-counting workers injuries at Tesla plants is conning safety regulators - it's not as dumb as Elon's other cons, but it's a con. Removing safety markers because Elon doesn't like them aesthetically is maybe not a con job but it is remarkably idiotic. The PR-motivated stuff about Musk engineering a solution to those kids trapped in Thailand - straight-up con job, and one that blew up in his face due to his idiotic and narcissitic use of Twitter. Hyperloop (remember that?) was always a con job, and one that was so transparently stupid that nobody but Musk could have gotten away with it.

I could go on. The point is that I am calling Musk an "idiot conman" because of

a) his well-documented affinity for conning his customers, fans, investors, and government agencies

b) his well-documented acts of being a huge idiot, including in his planning and execution of most of the above con jobs

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#323

Post by kevincox »

hudon wrote: post #181

I own a Tesla and love it. Having said that, “full self driving” is so far off what it actually does it’s actually not just a marketing issue, it is a safety issue. I’ve had my Tesla drive towards an incoming lane, slam on the breaks in the middle of the highway with no cars in front of us, swerve into another lane with no warning, and probably other hiccups I don’t remember. I know now I not only need to keep my han…

This is what bothers me the most about "Autopilot". Marketing aside I think that this level of automation is in an uncanny valley of danger. It isn't good enough to take full control, but it is good enough that the driver feels safe enough to get distracted.

I'm sure there are many of drivers who keep their full attention on the road, but in general humans are bad at focusing on tedious things that they don't feel are necessary.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#324

Post by bluGill »

itsoktocry wrote: post #198
sergiosgc wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally think the stock market is bonkers about Tesla. It's a local effect over the possibility of entering the S&P, maybe some short squeeze and possibly expectations about new tech on battery day. Having said that, I think the relative valuation can be supported without any of those outlandish claims. Tesla produces about 300k vehicles a year. Toyota produces 30x that. However, the demand over Teslas meant the…

> However, the demand over Teslas meant they almost did not feel any demand impact because of Covid, while Toyota saw a 30% demand drop. Tesla doesn't even define what a "delivery" is (remember factory-gated?), nor do I believe any numbers that come out of China, so I'm skeptical that they weren't affected by Covid-19. Personally, I think they "delivered" a number to ensure the stock analysts are appeased. If demand…

I believe tesla's numbers. When you have a backlog of sales a few cancled orders just changes the queue. Toyota didn't have that. Tesla also had customers in industry least affected (engineers and other upper class) who didn't need to adjust their life as much as waiters did.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#325

Post by AgloeDreams »

vvanders wrote: post #143
nemothekid wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. I'm saying Tesla is successful because of Elon's hype. They are not "forgiving" his misgivings, they fully believe Elon will solve world hunger and invent FTL space travel. If you ask anyone who's bought into Tesla, they will tell you the "Auto Pilot on airplanes" lie, but they also believe Elon will deliver on Level 5 Autonomous driving. No cares about electric cars, they care about the guy's company who is usin…

Remove autopilot from a Model S and it's still a hell of a car. Just from a pure driving dynamics a mechanical engine can't touch a VFD in terms of power dynamics and range(which is also why Diesel-Electric locomotives use them). Don't disagree on the autopilot, the killer app has always been for me stop-and-go traffic where the speeds are lower and the sensors need to do less vision and more radar based.

Short of range issues, you should drive a Taycan to see just how much better it can get. The Car lacks the infotainment tech of Tesla, the network, and the autopilot tech but from a driving dynamics and quality standpoint makes the Model S feel poor.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#326

Post by bluGill »

foobarian wrote: post #156
nemothekid wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have, and I also adore the cars, my next car will likely be a Tesla and I own the stock. I've spent a lot of time researching the company so I didn't come to this conclusion by being bitter over the company. I think it's important to point out that the success of the company is largely built on the mythos of the man rather than the objective success of the cars. Tesla, earlier this week reached a market cap exceedi…

I think I prefer not to look at stock / market cap too much in this climate of excess money sloshing around. It's just a popularity vote. What I really have to give Tesla is: they have cars; they actually make them in factories they built; they built their own battery factory; they also invest into software side of things. And lastly they invested a ton into the charger network, which initially helped them get off th…

Car companies have always been build engines and assembly of body organizations, buying other parts from whoever. Each is a bit different but nothing new about not owning all the technology. If it isn't a competitive advantage why bother?

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#327

Post by bdamm »

bluGill wrote: post #317
bdamm wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you driven a Model 3? It's like night and day. Everything that burns gasoline feels like a dinosaur to me now after driving a Model 3. I can't stand renting cars, they are all complete junk compared to my Model 3 at home. I said this to a Hertz in Denver, they gave me their best Jaguar. It stinks, it is slow, it is pathetic. It's basically game over for ICE, and they know it. They have 10-15 years maybe but at t…

Almost everything unsafe about gas cars applies regardless of the power train. The only exception is leaving it running in a closed room (and even there it isn't nearly as bad for a modern car) Every car I've ever owned had no problem reaching freeway speeds. Even my geo metro which is rightly considered underpowered at best (and mine had a misfire problem). I'm not going to a track so I don't need more speed than is…

EVs are much safer than gasoline cars because of how the mass in the car is distributed. Gasoline cars have a giant brick in the front (engine and transmission) which moves back into the passenger compartment in a frontal collision. Automotive engineers have to work all kinds of magic to stop the engine from smashing passengers. In an EV, the big sled of batteries in the bottom causes the car to rotate away from the crash energy, and makes it almost impossible to flip. Plus EVs can use that frontal space for energy absorption.

It's actually a big deal.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#328

Post by bjarneh »

hudon wrote: post #181

I own a Tesla and love it. Having said that, “full self driving” is so far off what it actually does it’s actually not just a marketing issue, it is a safety issue. I’ve had my Tesla drive towards an incoming lane, slam on the breaks in the middle of the highway with no cars in front of us, swerve into another lane with no warning, and probably other hiccups I don’t remember. I know now I not only need to keep my han…

> I need to actively make sure the car doesn’t kill us

Same experience here. Why people say this is relaxing; and takes the stress away from long distance driving is beyond me...

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#329

Post by ummonk »

dlivingston wrote: post #141

While the average non-Tesla owner might be confused on phrases like “autopilot”, any Tesla owner is very aware of its capabilities and shortcomings. When you first purchase your Tesla and are beginning the setup process, you’re presented with multiple warning screens like this: https://boygeniusreport.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/autostee... That’s an old image: I couldn’t find the current warning screen on Google Ima…

Why do they call it "auto steer"? It's a much more misleading term than "lane centering".

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#330

Post by catalogia »

dahfizz wrote: post #272
ianmobbs wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a difference between "funding a Roadster" and "designing and fully understanding the physics and mechanics of the Roadster".

> designing and fully understanding the physics and mechanics of the Roadster. I've never seen anyone claim Musk did that. What are you on about?

From the context of your comment, it seemed as though you meant to support the notion that Elon Musk was working as a scientist, not a businessman.
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