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Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

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Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#271

Post by advanced-DnD »

typon wrote: post #36
mytailorisrich wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether China liberalise is a red herring. This is a geopolitical clash of power. It's not about respective political regimes, it's about relative power and influence. If China liberalises tomorrow none of the fundamental issues will change and China will still be a threat to the US. The only thing that will change is that the US will have to find something else in order to label China 'evil'.

This is why the Chinese strategy is not to give in to US bullying but create an alternative order in the world. Either the US comes to terms with it or we see the US empire lash out even harder

An alternative where criticizing the CCP or that Pooh will end you up in jail? An alternative where China claim my country's ocean, far from its Mainland?

No thank you. Stop pushing "China is victim of bully" or "China is here to save you from evil West" rhetoric.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#272

Post by Ekaros »

flohofwoe wrote: post #49
room271 wrote: post #9

This kind of thing is going to play out a lot over the next few years. It's a tough question: how to marry globalisation with the political realities. When China was very poor, it didn't really matter, or perhaps the assumption was that China would liberalise more quickly than it has. But China, while increasingly mature economically, has not developed proper civil society, human rights, freedom of expression, democr…

I think the simplistic sort of thinking that capitalism and human rights are 'inseparable' from each other and can be 'exported' like Coca Cola or Blue Jeans is just a leftover from the Cold War. The reality is much more complicated unfortunately, together with the slowly growing realisation that the USA has quickly lost it's 'role model' status as the leader of the 'Free World' after the Cold War has ended. The West…

Considering the actions of these capitalist nations during Cold War it's pretty clear in retrospective that promoting human rights and democracy wasn't very high priority. Propping up dictators and terrorist don't seem very much in those lines.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#273

Post by sudosysgen »

rashkov wrote: post #236
free_rms wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear what you're saying here, and no, our country doesn't have to be perfect before criticizing someone else. But still, we should wonder if the criticism is motivated by something other than pure concern for human rights. You expect me to believe that Americans are mad at China strictly because they really, really care about the rights of muslims? With our record and our allies' records? Or is it possible that thi…

I believe that people who claim to be mad at Chinese human rights abuses are mostly genuine in their feelings. They also have a blind spot for the abuses of their own country and their allies. That blind spot probably comes from the part of ourselves that's very tribal, as well as a social and political environment that ignores and minimizes self-criticism. Now, if we're talking about the US state department, then ab…

A consequentialist analysis would say that attacking China when it is almost impossible to influence while ignoring the abuses of your own government is even worse than inaction, because you are giving even more power to a state that is pretty much as bad.

I would be much more amenable to agreeing with the people that claim to be mad at China in the US if the solutions they proposed didn't give more power to US, that has no fundamental difference in foreign policy than China. Economically isolating China, for example, does absolutely nothing to help the treatment of Muslims in Xinjiang, but gives a lot more power to the United States. But if the solutions that were being talked about changed the balance of power towards entities that didn't wantonly abuse human rights, I would entirely agree.

Therefore, I don't think it's whataboutism. It would be whataboutism if the claim was that China actually respects human rights because the US is worse. But the question is different - it's whether we should economically isolate China on the pretext of their human rights abuses, or not. Saying that the party that benefits from this and that is pushing it is fundamentally just as disrespectful of human rights is not whataboutism, it's a question of whether the proposed actions will do anything for human rights at all.

It seems pretty clear to me that they won't.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#274

Post by mlindner »

yifanlu wrote: post #223
room271 wrote: post #9

This kind of thing is going to play out a lot over the next few years. It's a tough question: how to marry globalisation with the political realities. When China was very poor, it didn't really matter, or perhaps the assumption was that China would liberalise more quickly than it has. But China, while increasingly mature economically, has not developed proper civil society, human rights, freedom of expression, democr…

Jeez as a Chinese person who lives in USA I find this comment very condescending and offensive. > But China, while increasingly mature economically, has not developed proper civil society, human rights, freedom of expression, democracy, and so on. I don’t want to get into a whataboutism debate about all the human rights violations the USA has engaged in (yes Trump but Obama as well and W before him and etc). But real…

It's not sinophobia. I've got _zero_ issue with Chinese Americans as long as their English is good enough that their primary news sources still don't still sit in China (for example second generation or greater Chinese Americans). It's the legitimate concern about China pushing remote spying into its software and hardware that is sold overseas as well as the manipulation of people through companies like TikTok aka ByteDance.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#275

Post by mlindner »

yushuf wrote: post #226
mpfundstein wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

comments like this make me wanna reach 500 karma so that i can downvote :-) man are you REALLY and seriously arguing that a single party empire system is better than democracy? dude please. It might be better if you like to live in your bee hive and play your assigned role. But what if you are different? what if you want to be something else than society forces you to be? what theb? you are screwed my friend. and tha…

How is democracy working out in Arab spring countries or Eastern European countries? Most westerners have it wrong where they think Democracy --> Economic prosperity, where in fact it's quite the opposite. Economic prosperity --> Strong government --> Democracy. If you don't have a strong state, Democracy (or any political system) just leads to widespread corruption. If you're interested in learning more about how Ch…

You've got it completely backwards. Strong government leads to the corruption of society and a reduction in freedom. If you have weaker government then there is more freedom for everyone and greater economic prosperity.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#276

Post by rch »

Waterfall wrote: post #209
cptskippy wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US government is stagnated by politics and the current political culture focuses on screwing over the opposing party above all else. On the surface it seems like the grumpy old men in charge are just being stubborn and exercising their power to ensure their opponents lose, but if you look at the legislation that does get passed you start to see something very different. Most of the legislation passed revolves aro…

I don't think it's that cut and dry. If people are being oppressed, why don't they leave? The innovations and benefits must outweigh the problems. I'm happy to be a US citizen, with excellent buying power. What product is worst and more expensive that you have in mind?

Community owned ISPs seem to outperform privatized providers in terms of customer value, even if achieving sustainable cash flow can prove challenging.

-- https://nrs.harvard.edu/urn-3:HUL.InstRepos:34623859

-- https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/6611-report-municipal-f...

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#277

Post by haecceity »

yodelshady wrote: post #110
rich_sasha wrote: post #38

If this is just Realpolitik/hardware independence, fine, but security..? Any worthwhile Internet traffic should be encrypted in 2020, and if it isn’t, Huawei probably isn’t the most immediate concern. And if it is encrypted, does it really matter who is listening? Comments welcome, I know zilch about telecoms hardware.

You can't encrypt "metadata" that the machine needs to know to do its job, and with enough of that, you can de-anonymise any public posters. And you'll have metadata on (some of) their contacts too. Plus, if it's your tower, you can just switch it off, at an opportune moment.

If that's the case then you want as many providers as possible so no one has enough information to de-anonymize the traffic?

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#278

Post by einpoklum »

gspr wrote: post #146
einpoklum wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Proper civil society and human rights" - like the ones afforded to Julian Assange? Or the treatment of the Grenfell tower victims' families? Glass houses etc.

> "Proper civil society and human rights" - like the ones afforded to Julian Assange? Or the treatment of the Grenfell tower victims' families? Now imagine a society where every dissident is treated like Assange, and every poor nobody is treated like the Grenfell tower residents. And with no recourse. And no free media to spread the outrage. And no reasonable expectation of privacy to even discuss the matter privatel…

> Now imagine a society where every dissident is treated like Assange, and every poor nobody is treated like the Grenfell tower residents

The British colonies over the years? Possibly Britain itself as far as the treatment of poor nobodies.

Look, China's a repressive regime, but: (1.) A bit less so than it's described by Western media, and (2.) Britain and the US are not categorically different, they're just, well, different in the contexts and degrees in which they oppress more and less.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#279

Post by vetinari »

londons_explore wrote: post #214
nradov wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Existing 4G LTE connections work well enough for those use cases you listed; users will hardly notice any difference on 5G. The real benefit of 5G will be in the new types of applications it enables.

Today... But when webpages become 50 MB each on average, you're going to be waiting a long time for them to load over LTE... Those 'new applications' will be old applications with a few thousand more JavaScript libraries bundled with every page load...

From the experience with LTE-based FWA in the boonies: 50 MB webpages each is fine. Even if someone else is watching youtube on the same connection.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#280

Post by hardlianotion »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #50
hrktb wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a EU/UK perspective there’s no good coming from it. It’s like being caught in a fight between your drunk uncle and your berserk cousin.

There is definitely good coming out of it for the EU. Europe does not have to align with either side. It is a superpower in its own right if it gets its shit together (one can dream).

I think it needs to be a stronger political entity in its own right for that. EU foreign policy is hamstrung by very different foreign policy objectives of member states.
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